Saving Throws vs. Emanations (e.g. Irnakurse)

[dhemery]

Players in my campaign will soon face an Irnakurse. The Soul Scream ability says what happens to creatures after “further failed saves,” but it doesn’t say when creatures roll those further saves. Other PF2e area/emanation abilities (e.g. the Entangling Flora spell) explicitly say when their effects trigger new saves, but Soul Scream does not.

Is there a general rule somewhere that says when creatures make a new saving throw against an emanation or area effect?

I’m tentatively ruling that creatures make a save if they enter the emanation or start a turn in it. This seems to be the usual circumstance where area and emanation effects give new saving throws. But I’d like to know if there’s a general rule that handles this.

[NielsenE]

That ability is a little oddly written IMO.

Its a two-action ability, usable once a day, but can be sustained. The sustained explicitly says no new save.

The failure/crit failure call out "further failed saves" which is where I think its a bit oddly written.

I think I would interpret the Failure condition as:
Failure: The creature is stupefied 1. If the Irnakurse sustains their scream and the target is still inside the emanation, increase the stupefied by one to a maximum of 4.

[Tridus]

It actually says they don't get new saves:

Quote:

Soul Scream [two-actions] (auditory, concentrate, emotion, mental, occult)

Frequency once per day; E
ffect The irnakurse unleashes an alien shriek of nightmarish horror and pain. All non-aberration creatures within a 10-foot emanation must attempt a DC 28 Will save. The irnakurse can Sustain Soul Scream for up to 6 rounds; each time it does, it repeats the effect without a new save.

So each time it sustains, the PCs get the same result they rolled on the initial save. That means if they fail the first one, they auto-fail on every-sustain and Stupefied will stack up.

[dhemery]

If the effect of a creature's save against the initial scream are repeated by each sustain…

Here are some scenarios:

A creature succeeds and gains stupefied 1 for 1 round, then remains in the emanation for the first sustain. Are they stupefied 1 for another 1 round (because sustain repeats the effect)?

A creature succeeds and gains stupefied 1 for 1 round, then steps away for a round and loses stupefied, then returns within the emanation for the next sustain? Do they regain stupefied 1 (because sustain repeats the effect)?

What if a creature is outside the emanation for the initial scream, but then inside for the next sustain? Do they roll an initial saving throw (because it’s the first time they’re subject to the effect) or not (because no save on sustain)?

[Tridus]

dhemery wrote:

If the effect of a creature's save against the initial scream are repeated by each sustain…

Here are some scenarios:

A creature succeeds and gains stupefied 1 for 1 round, then remains in the emanation for the first sustain. Are they stupefied 1 for another 1 round (because sustain repeats the effect)?

Yes.

Quote:

A creature succeeds and gains stupefied 1 for 1 round, then steps away for a round and loses stupefied, then returns within the emanation for the next sustain? Do they regain stupefied 1 (because sustain repeats the effect)?

Yes.

Quote:

What if a creature is outside the emanation for the initial scream, but then inside for the next sustain? Do they roll an initial saving throw (because it’s the first time they’re subject to the effect) or not (because no save on sustain)?

Text isn't super clear on that, but that's how I'd rule it because it makes sense and is consistent with what happened to everyone else: you roll a save on your initial exposure, and that's the save you use for subsequent exposures for that use of the ability. (So if you fled and encountered it again the next day, you'd get a new save as its a new use of the ability.)

[Kelseus]

I think this is a result of an incomplete update of an ability for remaster.

Between the original and remaster, the "without a new save" language was added.

I think you have two options, 1) ignore the new language and give targets a new save every round OR 2) no new save, on a F/CF the penalty goes up if they are still in the area when it is sustained.

My preference is option 1. It is simpler.

I think that a creature that enters the emanation on subsequent rounds is affected the same as a creature in the emanation on the first round (see "it repeats the effect...")

[Finoan]

Yeah, the ability now conflicts with itself. Affected creatures don't make new saves on Sustain. But only additional failed saves (that they don't attempt?) will increase the Stupefied condition.

How I would run it:
* When cast, and on Sustain for creatures in the range that haven't been affected already: make the first save against the effect.
* On Sustain for creatures that have already been affected, they do not make a new save to change their degree of success result for the effect overall. They do make an additional save of the same type and DC to avoid increasing the Stupefied condition for that round of its effect.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

I played it with the premaster wording, i.e. repeated saves.
Makes it a bit more dangerous if used as a single enemy, but feels more fair.

[SuperParkourio]

I think those who are within the emanation when the monster uses Soul Scream gain the effect that Soul Scream imposes, and they stay under Soul Scream's effect for 6 rounds or until the monster stops Sustaining it, regardless of where they are after Soul Scream was used.

If the emanation itself continued to matter after the Soul Scream action was performed, it would say something like "stupefied 1 while in the emanation." Instead, it says "stupefied 1 and can lower the value with a full night's rest."