Concern Over New AP Direction

[brgoss]

Hiya!

Just watched the youtube upload for this month's Paizo direct, and I'm excited for the Bastions AP coming out. However, I'm VERY concerned on the direction of the AP product. The HC choice I'm good with, maybe. But if Guilt of the Graveward is anything to go by via page count, we're getting less than half the content we were getting in 3 AP issues/volumes. It's around 120 pages, so maybe 30 pages more than a single AP issue. But it cost $45. That's a LOT more for what is being billed as a 'quarterly model with same amount of content'. 30 more pages and HC treatment for roughly $20 more. I mean what's the difference now between an AP HC and the stand alone adventures that were HC as well? Why use the Adventure Path branding at all now?

But I digress on that volume as it was the first one, first big adventure for SF2E so whatever. But I checked out the store entry for the new Hellbreakers PF AP that is slated for March. Maybe I missed it but there was only the thickness dimension and not a rough page count. It's a whopping 1/10 of an inch thicker than GotGW, but it's priced at $80? Maybe the dimensions are off, but that definitely is NOT going to be twice GotGW content, let alone enough to cover what used to be 3 AP volumes for 'quarterly content'.

I completely understand costs to produce and get to market are......problematic in the current climate. I get that money can be tight, but it's tight on everyone's end. While $80 is about what three volumes cost of the prior APs, it seems we're just not getting the content that we used to. And while HC are nice, I want APs to play with my friends, and that means content. I don't know how others feel, but I'd rather have content over the hardcover upgrade.

But maybe I'm wrong. I'm looking forward to the new AP, but I'm also very apprehensive about it as well because I know if it's not much more than what GotGW was, but for almost twice the price I'm not going to be overly happy.

Can you provide any insights beyond just the barebones info that's on that AP's store page, or just the approach period of the new AP direction that can alleviate some of my concerns?

Thanks!

[James Jacobs]

We covered a lot of this several months back when we first announced the format change for Pathifnder Adventure Paths, but here's a quick recap:

A standard Pathfinder hardcover Adventure Path is 256 pages, and the adventures themselves still roughly cover the same amount of space they did in a 3 part softcover volume. (Starfinder Adventure Paths are their own thing and shouldn't be thought of as representing the norm for a hardcover Pathfinder Adventure Path.) Sometimes, a Pathfinder Adventure Path will be longer—as in the case for this one: Bastion of Blasphemies is (If I recall correctly) 264 pages.

The cost for 3 softcover Adventure Paths was about $90. And you'd potentially pay shipping 3 times. The cost for 1 hardcover Adventure Path is $80. And you pay shipping only once.

A deeper dive on the page-count differences between 3 softcovers and 1 hardcover:

Spoiler:

A single softcover Pathfinder Adventure Path volume is 96 pages for a total pagecount of 288. But in that volume, the first 3 pages are always a table of contents, and the last 3 to 5 pages are advertisements and the license/credits page. Each volume has its own Toolbox, which includes a full page of art. Spread out over 3 volumes, that equates to what's essentially 7 to 9 pages of "repeated" art that a hardcover doesn't do. Let's split the difference there and call it 8 pages of "repeated" content in the 2nd and 3rd volume of each 3 volume Adventure Path. The pagecount of the actual adventure content in each volume varied, but what didn't vary was that each adventure covered enough content to cover at least 3 levels of play... and sometimes 4 levels.

A single hardcocer Pathfinder Adventure Path is (at minimum) 256 pages. That IS 32 pages less than before, yes... but let's recall that the hardcover doesn't "repeat" the 8 pages from book 2 and book 3, so that's 16 pages we get back right there, leaving a difference in content of 16 pages.

Most Adventure Paths feature at least 6 pages of new monsters and 2 (or sometimes 3) six to eight page backmatter articles. Often, those backmatter articles are only secondary to running the adventure and present additional information beyond the scope and need for that adventure—it's good stuff, yeah, but it's not "necessary" to run the adventure.

We can make up those 16 pages by running fewer new monsters overall, and/or by running fewer than 6 six-page backmatter articles. In fact, we can cut four monsters overall and 2 backmatter articles and presto—it fits!

And in cases where we still need to do a lot of monsters or 6+ backmatter articles, we can expand the pagecount beyond the minimum of 256 pages—that's a luxury lever we can pull for a single hardcover book that we couldn't pull with a softcover monthly adventure.

TL; DR: The amount of adventure you're getting in a hardcover Pathfinder Adventure Path is the same as what you were getting in the 3-part softcovers—a campaign spanning 9 to 11 levels of play, depending on the one in question.

[James Jacobs]

And some further info:

Hellbreakers covers a campaign from 1st to 9th level.
Its sequel, Hell's Destiny, covers a campaign from 10th to 20th level.

Bastion of Blasphemies, out after that, covers a campaign from 5th to 13th level... although you can hit 14th by the end if your group does everything along the way. This is another boon that we can do in a single book rather than the 96 page monthly ones—we can potentially have a partial level in an adventure without it being weird.

[brgoss]

Thanks James!

We've just had the GotGW so far, and the comparison of what I could do online in the store is limited since there was no page count. I feel a lot better knowing it'll be ~260 pages on average.

I'm looking at running some PF one shots in a new local club in quarterly events that are being run, but it'd been hard to recommend PF if the books were going to be on the thin side for that $80 price point.

Now I'm even more hyped for the Bation AP now, sounds fun and I love the art in the entire showcase. Thanks for the clarification! Hope you and yours and everyone there has a great holiday season.

[Maya Coleman]

Thanks for jumping in here James and keeping all the information clear!

[Cori Marie]

Its also worth noting that Starfinder APs were always shorter length volumes than their Pathfinder equivalents. Single volume SF AP volumes were 68 pages rather than 100.

[Maya Coleman]

Cori Marie wrote:

Its also worth noting that Starfinder APs were always shorter length volumes than their Pathfinder equivalents. Single volume SF AP volumes were 68 pages rather than 100.

Yes, this is also something important to note! Thanks for pointing this out, Cori Marie!

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

brgoss wrote:

Just watched the youtube upload for this month's Paizo direct, and I'm excited for the Bastions AP coming out.

Has there been a blogpost on this site detailing this “new AP”? If not, then I humbly ask that Paizo makes such announcements here, on their website, rather than elsewhere.

[QuidEst]

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

brgoss wrote:

Just watched the youtube upload for this month's Paizo direct, and I'm excited for the Bastions AP coming out.

Has there been a blogpost on this site detailing this “new AP”? If not, then I humbly ask that Paizo makes such announcements here, on their website, rather than elsewhere.

It's not coming out for another ten months or so. I think they like to keep the blogs for things that are a little closer to release, so that people following them don't get overloaded with stuff they can't actually get their hands on anytime soon.

[James Jacobs]

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

brgoss wrote:

Just watched the youtube upload for this month's Paizo direct, and I'm excited for the Bastions AP coming out.

Has there been a blogpost on this site detailing this “new AP”? If not, then I humbly ask that Paizo makes such announcements here, on their website, rather than elsewhere.

We announced it a few weeks ago on Paizo live over on Twitch, and I'm always eager to chat about it here too as much as I can, but as folks note it's many months out still. Getting a blog up about it is still a pretty nifty idea, but don't expect something like that to even start moving behind the scenes here, since I assume I'll be the one to write it and I'm TECHNICALLY on vacation until the first week of January... and even then, I'm not the one in charge of the blog itself so there may well not be a chance soon to do something like this.

Still! If you have questions, ask away. If I see them here or over on the Pathfinder 2E reddit and I've got the chance and spare vacation energy to reply I'll do so!

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

Heh. Well, firstly, let me say that, yes, a blogpost for an AP that is many months away seems premature. But there is a strange disconnect for those of us - who do not consume social media and diligently peruse the official Paizo website for information - being completely bereft of what is essentially basic information. I’m not sure how your Communications and Marketing strategy is set up, but let me say it is failing me!

@James - thanks for stepping in and offering to answer questions - I know you are busy elsewhere, but you do seem to make/find the time to assist the community.

So what *is* the Bastions AP - I guess the elevator pitch?

Why will you particularly be writing this AP?

[Curmudgeonly]

You can hear it from James directly here OceanshieldwolPF 2.5:

Paizo Direct for December

Let him enjoy his vacation :)

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

I’ll repeat:

OSWPF2 wrote:

But there is a strange disconnect for those of us - who do not consume social media and diligently peruse the official Paizo website for information - being completely bereft of what is essentially basic information. I’m not sure how your Communications and Marketing strategy is set up, but let me say it is failing me!

I read blogposts. I read threads. All on Paizo’s *official website*. That kinda seems like it should be enough.

[James Jacobs]

The elevator pitch for "Bastion of Blasphemies" is: "The PCs are trapped in an immense haunted castle that's inspired by Castlevania, Dark Souls, and a love of the folk horror genre."

I'm writing it because I've wanted my friend Wes Schneider to write it forever, but since he's not available to write it I'm writing it because Wes and I have VERY similar tastes, and this is an adventure that needs to be told. I only hope I've done it justice!

[QuidEst]

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

I’ll repeat:

OSWPF2 wrote:

But there is a strange disconnect for those of us - who do not consume social media and diligently peruse the official Paizo website for information - being completely bereft of what is essentially basic information. I’m not sure how your Communications and Marketing strategy is set up, but let me say it is failing me!

I read blogposts. I read threads. All on Paizo’s *official website*. That kinda seems like it should be enough.

It is enough if you want to be informed about everything Paizo is releasing before it comes out.

If you want to get all the information they put out as soon as it's available... yeah, some of that is going to be elsewhere first because there's no one place where everything goes first. The monthly streams do make a point of including some early spoilers, and external publications are more likely to run articles that serve as free Paizo advertising if they get some exclusive info.

As for stuff the site gets first, the paizo.com blogs often give much more info as we get closer to a release, and the store pages usually have some early important unannounced details as well as now including a few pages of previews around the release date.

In any case, someone did a spoiler breakdown on reddit here if you want to read more about the new beginner box, adventure, and AP before it's time for their respective blog posts.

---

On the topic of the new AP direction, I'm excited to see how it plays out in Bastion of Blasphemies! That will probably be the first of the new style I'll be checking out, since I'm afraid I'm one of the folks still a bit burnt out on Cheliax and Andoran from 1e. Folk horror is also very much in my friend group's wheelhouse.

[Rhapsodic College Dropout]

James Jacobs wrote:

The elevator pitch for "Bastion of Blasphemies" is: "The PCs are trapped in an immense haunted castle that's inspired by Castlevania, Dark Souls, and a love of the folk horror genre."

I'm writing it because I've wanted my friend Wes Schneider to write it forever, but since he's not available to write it I'm writing it because Wes and I have VERY similar tastes, and this is an adventure that needs to be told. I only hope I've done it justice!

We'll I'm in. Castlevania was a vibe I always got from Scarwall in Curse of the Crimson Throne, and if there is a whole AP in that style, then let's goooooooooooo

[Maya Coleman]

Rhapsodic College Dropout wrote:

We'll I'm in. Castlevania was a vibe I always got from Scarwall in Curse of the Crimson Throne, and if there is a whole AP in that style, then let's goooooooooooo

Yes, this is why I'm excited too! Let's goooo!

[The Raven Black]

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

I’ll repeat:

OSWPF2 wrote:

But there is a strange disconnect for those of us - who do not consume social media and diligently peruse the official Paizo website for information - being completely bereft of what is essentially basic information. I’m not sure how your Communications and Marketing strategy is set up, but let me say it is failing me!

I read blogposts. I read threads. All on Paizo’s *official website*. That kinda seems like it should be enough.

Quite in agreement. It feels extremely odd to see people commenting on a future Paizo product in a thread here but forgetting to mention what it is about. As if everyone magically knew what they were talking about.

That plus the loss of the old comments on products plus the loss of comments being possible right under a product's description or even under a blog post plus the APs going from monthly to quarterly makes the products news feel distant to the point of non-existence.

In comparison, the PF community boards feel active, even though they too are much less lively than only a few years ago.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

James Jacobs wrote:

The elevator pitch for "Bastion of Blasphemies" is: "The PCs are trapped in an immense haunted castle that's inspired by Castlevania, Dark Souls, and a love of the folk horror genre."

I'm writing it because I've wanted my friend Wes Schneider to write it forever, but since he's not available to write it I'm writing it because Wes and I have VERY similar tastes, and this is an adventure that needs to be told. I only hope I've done it justice!

This is a great elevator pitch.

[Cori Marie]

I mean the schedule for Paizo Live on Twitch has been constant for the last couple years (with exceptions when the first Friday of a month is the first or second day of the month). They do Paizo Lives on the first Friday of the month. That's where you're going to get some information about upcoming releases, and where the people who knew about Bastion of Blasphemies learned about it.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Cori Marie wrote:

I mean the schedule for Paizo Live on Twitch has been constant for the last couple years (with exceptions when the first Friday of a month is the first or second day of the month). They do Paizo Lives on the first Friday of the month. That's where you're going to get some information about upcoming releases, and where the people who knew about Bastion of Blasphemies learned about it.

NGL, I think it'd be good to have a weekly blog that embeds the VOD, and has a quick dot point of the highlights with time-stamps, but that'd probably be a bit of extra work.

[James Jacobs]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Cori Marie wrote:

I mean the schedule for Paizo Live on Twitch has been constant for the last couple years (with exceptions when the first Friday of a month is the first or second day of the month). They do Paizo Lives on the first Friday of the month. That's where you're going to get some information about upcoming releases, and where the people who knew about Bastion of Blasphemies learned about it.

NGL, I think it'd be good to have a weekly blog that embeds the VOD, and has a quick dot point of the highlights with time-stamps, but that'd probably be a bit of extra work.

This is good feedback, but it's in the wrong thread. This one's about the direction of the Adventure Paths going forward, so folks who wanna talk about Bastion of Blasphemies OR offer good suggestions like this for blog posts should aim those posts in the proper forums, so they won't get lost. (I mean, I found this one here and can chat about Bastion of Blasphemies, but it seems apparent that it'd be less confusing to chat about it in a more properly named thread... and I'm not sure folks on the blog team pay as close attention to Adventure Path content like this, but I could be wrong!)

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

That's a great point and I will post this in a more visible thread for the blog team thanks James!

[Noven]

I really wish that SF adventures would get parity with PF. You would think with having a new edition of SF it would get the love it deserves instead of being just the step-sibling project.

[willfromamerica]

Noven wrote:

I really wish that SF adventures would get parity with PF. You would think with having a new edition of SF it would get the love it deserves instead of being just the step-sibling project.

I agree, I keep wanting to get really into SF2e but there’s just such little content to run in the system.