I recently started a couple of threads about making wands in PF2 a bit less rubbish, by changing wands themselves (or more precisely, adding a new kind of wand). The response was...not overwhelmingly positive. Anyway, I had another idea, this time tackling things from the character side rather than the wand side.
Early in the PF2 playtest period, there a concept called Resonance. It was an interesting idea as originally billed, but it could not survive its initial implementation (which was frankly terrible, and did basically none of the things it was supposed to do). It was replaced by the less-ambitious but better-implemented Investment mechanic.
My thought was, what if Resonance was an optional resource you bought into, rather a fundamental mechanic (the good version of Resonance that possibly only existed inside my head). Specifically, you'd have a pool of points refreshed daily, and which you could spend to get more or better use out of wands and other magic items. To use your Resonance on an item, you would need to Invest it, using up one of your ten (even if it was an item that did not normally require Investment).
In the hands of such a character, and Invested wand would cost a Resonance point for each use, but they could keep using it as long as they had points to spend (with no risk of breaking it). If anyone else tried to use the same wand, it would function normally, and doing so would break the Investment for the day. I would like to say that it would also work with other categories of magic items, but I don't have any concrete plans for that (just some tentative ideas for staves and comsumables, which I need to ponder a bit more).
This would probably be a bit much for a single feat, so I am thinking the best way to implement it would be an Archetype, called Resonator. The Dedication would give you the pool and allow you to use it with one category of item. Other feats would expand the pool and open it up to other categories of items.
Since that is not a huge number of feats, I would probably include the existing Incredible Investiture and maybe Trick Magic Item as Archetype feats too.
Obviously, the exact number of points in the pool would be critical. It needs to high enough to be worthwhile, without being so high as to render such items effectively at-will. It should probably scale up a little with level, but not massively (maybe with an Attribute or two).
There should probably also be some restriction on using Resonance on an item that is higher level than you. Maybe you just can't, or maybe you can but it costs extra points based on the level difference.
So, what do you think? Anyone have any ideas about non-wand effects? Any other categories of items which particularly need help?
(Also, is there any precedent for a non-Skill General feat in an Archetype?)
Would Resonance be a separate pool from investiture, in that case? I do like the core idea of being able to cast from a wand more than once per day, but if Resonance is added as its own resource, it would effectively give any wand-user lots of free casts from the get-go, which would tie back to some of the issues mentioned in the previous thread in my opinion.
I’d say if there’s an intent here to create a wand-based archetype, that may potentially be a good starting point: casting lots of extra wand spells might be completely fine with the right feat investment, and archetype feats could be a good way to trial different mechanics you’d want out of wands.
Would Resonance be a separate pool from investiture, in that case? I do like the core idea of being able to cast from a wand more than once per day, but if Resonance is added as its own resource, it would effectively give any wand-user lots of free casts from the get-go, which would tie back to some of the issues mentioned in the previous thread in my opinion.
I’d say if there’s an intent here to create a wand-based archetype, that may potentially be a good starting point: casting lots of extra wand spells might be completely fine with the right feat investment, and archetype feats could be a good way to trial different mechanics you’d want out of wands.
The impression I got is that your Resonance pool is split off from your Investiture (I always think I'm talking about Cosmere when I use that word), and it applies to all magic items, I think.
I do agree with Teridax that getting to use a wand a ton of times each day is probably more trouble than it's worth. I'm also not sure you necessarily need to make Resonance locked off behind a feat or archetype. It can just be something you give to your players.
IMO the real question is how to make it important enough to enough builds, which loops around to what you're expecting it to be spent on. Are you thinking only wands, for example?
Also, on the subject of wands and Resonance, I think the way I'd implement would either have Resonance be equal to half your level, rounded up, or maybe turn all your unspent Investiture points into Resonance, so there is a choice between wearing lots of permanent items or triggering temporary ones.
As for wands, what about spending a Resonance point lets you auto-succeed on the check to see if it is broken or not? You can't wand spam all the time, but you do double the efficiency of all the wands you own.
I could also see Resonance being used for a couple other consumables. Spending a Resonance point rather than burning a talisman, for example, meaning that you can keep using it as long as you have points to spend.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I just want to chime in to say Resonance was a good mechanic for *one* of the many things it was trying to do, but making you unable to drink a critical potion because you wore a specific pair of pants that morning was why it failed.
Resonance as a consumable power source is well worth re-investigating. Just make sure you don't make it do too much.
Someone else made a thread about using wands to do a weak one action attack. Could be a good collaboration idea. A Resonator channels his inner well of power and shoots out a bolt. Allow the player to inscribe fundamental runes (but not property runes) into the wand or staff. If you want to spice it up you can let them use a resonance pool point to overcharge the shoot and do it as a three action activity for some extra special stuff. Basically adds another way for them to use the pool and gives them more choices on behavior.
As a side idea, one possible way to add an extra handcuff (since people think this needs one apparently) could be to pull a card from PF1E Kins and make resonance act like Burn. It takes your own life force to power the magic, costing you some amount of HP do it.
The impression I got is that your Resonance pool is split off from your Investiture (I always think I'm talking about Cosmere when I use that word), and it applies to all magic items, I think.
That was the general idea. It interacts with Investiture in the sense that you have to Invest something before you can spend Resonance on it (even if it is not something you would normally need to Invest, like a wand). Otherwise, Investment and Resonance are separate.
Perpdepog wrote:
I do agree with Teridax that getting to use a wand a ton of times each day is probably more trouble than it's worth.
That does seem to be the prevailing opinion across the three threads (and weirdly, in the PF1 thread too). I still think the idea has enough merit to at least warrant testing.
Perpdepog wrote:
Are you thinking only wands, for example?
No, I am hoping to find five to six categories of items to spend it on. Although other than wands, I need to figure out which categories and what Resonance will do for them.
Perpdepog wrote:
Also, on the subject of wands and Resonance, I think the way I'd implement would either have Resonance be equal to half your level, rounded up, or maybe turn all your unspent Investiture points into Resonance, so there is a choice between wearing lots of permanent items or triggering temporary ones.
I think half levels is probably a bit fast scaling - I would rather start a bit higher and scale up slower. OTOH, using left over Investment as Resonance (which is pretty much how Resonance worked in the playtest) scales negatively with level, that's probably a bit too far in the other direction.
Aside about playtest Resonance:
WatersLethe wrote:
I just want to chime in to say Resonance was a good mechanic for *one* of the many things it was trying to do, but making you unable to drink a critical potion because you wore a specific pair of pants that morning was why it failed.
I don't think Invested and spendable Resonance coming out of the same pool helped, but IMNSHO the things that killed it were:
1. Being needed for consumables, especially potions (which previously worked for anyone who was capable of drinking).
2. Being another layer on top of other requirements *which, at the time, were basically the same as in PF1). So vorpal weapons still needed to crit to activate but needed a point of Resonance too. And wands still had charges to track, in addition to Resonance.
Item 2 was made worse by dev statements in the run-up to the playtest which seemed to suggest that Resonance would be instead of wand charges rather than instead.
I do agree with Teridax that getting to use a wand a ton of times each day is probably more trouble than it's worth.
That does seem to be the prevailing opinion across the three threads (and weirdly, in the PF1 thread too). I still think the idea has enough merit to at least warrant testing.
To be very clear on my part: I have no trouble with casters casting lots of spells from wands. I just am not comfortable with casters casting lots of spells from wands for free, or for too cheap a cost. Requiring casters to Invest a wand to cast it one or two additional times may be fine, but ten additional casts might be too much, for instance. Casting ten extra spells from a wand could also be fine, if it required putting an appropriate number of feats into an archetype made just for that. This is why I personally believe using the archetype as your starting point here is likely to be more successful, because that would start imposing a meaningful cost to being able to make more use out of wands, and could therefore give you space to add lots of extra casts and other benefits.
Someone else made a thread about using wands to do a weak one action attack. Could be a good collaboration idea. A Resonator channels his inner well of power and shoots out a bolt.
That is an interesting idea. I would not do it with wands, but maybe make a new category of item (call them "blasting rods" or something). Spend a point of Resonance and an attack comes out the end. I'd probably treat more like weapons than normal magic items (runes and all).
Kilraq Starlight wrote:
Allow the player to inscribe fundamental runes (but not property runes) into the wand or staff.
You can already do that, at least for staves. Do you mean to allow them to be applied to spell attacks from that staff or wand?
Kilraq Starlight wrote:
Basically adds another way for them to use the pool and gives them more choices on behavior.
I was thinking there would be a one-to-one mapping between categories of affected items and ways they are effected. But that's not hard-&-fast (nothing is, at this stage).
Kilraq Starlight wrote:
As a side idea, one possible way to add an extra handcuff (since people think this needs one apparently) could be to pull a card from PF1E Kins and make resonance act like Burn. It takes your own life force to power the magic, costing you some amount of HP do it.
That's not a bad idea in the abstract, but it's not going to fly in my group. A couple of them really disliked Burn!
That's not a bad idea in the abstract, but it's not going to fly in my group. A couple of them really disliked Burn!
Yeah I think the idea has merit, but with homebrew you have to hit your tables preference. Myself, I love the idea of a high risk high reward system like that. You want infinite cosmic power, well you gotta pay a cost buddy!
As for the item, I was just short handing what they said in the other thread, wasn't my original idea. Basically they said something about players missing the fantasy of casting magic through their wands/staffs. That's why I suggested it as such. If you think a special bespoke wand would be useful go for it. I just suggested being able to do so with a base wand because your whole archetype here encourages extra wand use, no need to push a weapon swap. Could even be the base benefit in the dedication. Give them a "pool" of one to start, with your later feats building up the resonance pool. One feat can give them it for non-invested slots, another could give the suggested half lvl pool (which could be too generous yeah, unless you lvl cap for wands). I can seriously see this building up well. Look forward to your final thoughts and set up.
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Resonator Dedication (Feat 1*)
[Archetype][Dedication]
Archetype: Resonator
Prerequisites: Trained in Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion; Int or Cha +1**
You gain a pool of Resonance Points which can be used to activate Resonate Feats (Feats from this Archetype whose names begin "Resonate"). The number of points in your pool is 12 plus the higher of your Intelligence or Charisma, and gains two additional points for each other Feat you have from this Archetype. You refill the pool back up to its maximum number of points during your daily preparations.
Additionally, you gain one Resonate Feat of your choice, for which you meet the prerequisites.
You may take a second Dedication*** Feat before taking two feats from this Archetype provided the second Archetype is a Class Archetype for a spellcasting class, or is an Archetype which grants spellcasting. If you do so, you must have two additional feats from Resonator, and typically also from the other Archetype, before you can take a third Dedication.
You may Invest one or more Blasting Rods as part of your daily preparations (even though Blasting Rods are not warn). You may make an attack with an Invested Blasting Rod that is held in your hand. The cost is one Resonance Point, unless the Blasting Rod's level is higher than your level, in which case the cost is equal to the difference in levels.
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Resonate Wand (Feat 1)
[Archetype]
Archetype: Resonator
Prerequisites: Resonator Dedication, ability to cast spells from spell slots
You may Invest one or more Daily**** Wands as part of your daily preparations (even though Wands are not warn). When you have a wand Invested in this way, instead of activating it once per day (or twice by damaging the wand), you activate the wand by spending Resonance Points. There is no limit to how many times you can activate the wand other than the number of points you are willing and able to spend, and you never risk damaging the wand. The cost is one Resonance Point, unless the wand's level is higher than your level, in which case the cost is equal to the difference in levels.
Aside from the Resonance Point cost and number of uses per day, the wand functions as normal.
If anyone else uses a wand you have Invested, it counts as the second daily use (regardless of whether or how many times you have actually used it), and therefore they must roll to see if the wand is broken or destroyed.
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Resonate Staff (Feat 4)
[Archetype]
Archetype: Resonator
Prerequisites: Resonator Dedication, ability to cast spells from spell slots
When you prepare a Staff as part of your daily preparations, you may also Invest it (even though Staves are not warn). When you have a Staff Invested in this way and Cast a Spell from it, you may spend Resonance Points on the activation in one of two ways:
-If the spell uses charges, it uses a number of charges equal to one third of the spell's Rank (rounded up), rather than equal to the Rank.
-If the spell has an attack roll, you may apply any Weapon Potency Runes on the Staff to the Attack roll (but not any other Runes).
In either case, the cost is one Resonance Point, unless the wand's level is higher than your level, in which case the cost is equal to the difference in levels.
Aside from applying one of the above-described benefits, the Staff functions as normal.
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Extra Resonance (Feat 6)
[Archetype]
Archetype: Resonator
Prerequisites: Resonator Dedication, Int +1, Cha +1
You add both your Intelligence and Charisma to your Resonance Pool, rather than one or the other (this is in addition to the two extra points you gain because this is a Resonator Archetype feat).
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Extra Feats: Trick Magic Item, Incredible Investiture
Footnotes:
* I cannot think of any Dedication feats which are Level 1, but some classes get a Class feat at level 1 so there is no reason why they cannot exist.
** I thought about making spellcasting a prerequisite, but decided to leave it out of the Dedication (although several of the other feats will have it in one form or another).
*** The modification to the Dedication restriction is to allow people to get spellcasting from an archetype while also taking this, and also to allow compatibility with class archetypes like Flexible Spellcaster.
**** By which I mean a standard PF2 magic wand. The qualification is only necessary if [URL=https://paizo.com/threads/rzs7d4yq?Chargeable-wands-in-PF2#44]someone introduces some other kind of wand...[URL]
Aaaargh. Making a spelling error, copying-&-pasting it a bunch oftimes, and spotting it after the Edit window closes is not my idea of a good time. I meant "worn" not "warn". And someone introduces some other kind of wand... in the footnotes.
Anyway, moving on. Defining categories of feats by name is kinda "low tech". A more PF2 approach would be to give the approriate feats a Resonate keyword and refer to that, and that would also give me more flexibility in naming that. So pretend I did that in the above post.
As a Free Action you may spend Resonance Point on a magical or alchemical†† Healing Consumable that you have in hand. If you do so, and then use the Consumable before the end of your turn (or start using it, if it would take longer than a turn), the amount of hit points restored is increased: Any die rolls are maximised, and static values or modifiers are doubled. Additionally, if the item is alchemical, it also counts as magical if it is beneficial to do so.
Note that, unlike most other items you could spend Resonance Points on, Comsuambles do not need to be Invested.†††
As a Free Action, you may spend a Resonance Point on an Aeon Stone which is Invested and orbiting you. If you do so, you gain the benefit of its resonant power for the next five minutes (or until it ceases to orbit).
Footnotes:
† I dislike referring to restoring hp as "healing". HP are not meat points. So I am not going to do so when I don't have to (obviously I need to use the Healing keyword where appropriate).
†† Just working on magical consumables seemed a bit limited, so adding alchemicals seemed like a reasonable scope for the feat. Also, it's a nice nod to the playtest Alchemist.
††† Not sure if it is better to have this line in or not. It doesn't formally change anything (the other feats say they require investment, and this one doesn't). But sometimes calling out a change in a pattern can avoid misunderstandings, even if it is not strictly necessary.
†††† I really like Ioun/Aeon stones, and have done all the way back to AD&D 2e, so I like things which interact with them. I especially like things that unlock the resonant powers in other ways (since hiding them away in a Wayfinder removes the cool orbital aesthetic. Plus there's the name thing!
I feel like some of the numbers might be high, but I like the idea! Invest some class feats into being able to use wands and such more frequently and you can. It'd be quite a good feat chain for someone that wanted to invest in that, including a class that isn't a default caster but might want to be able to have a reusable wand on hand for various reasons.
