In a recent session at our table, the topic of item creation came up again and it was pointed out that certain classes possess features that allow them to emulate item creation feats with varying degrees of effectiveness.
Alchemists receive Swift Alchemy at 3rd level. Tattooed sorcerers receive Create Spell Tattoo at 7th level, etc.
While many of these point out they cannot replicate spells that need costly material components (or consume them on use), by RAW, do these class features completely ignore the base game mechanics that require price and material costs? Or are they still subject to those restrictions like the abilities they are emulating?
Does an alchemist not have to pay to make a flask of acid?
Can a tattooed sorcerer bypass needing to pay 4x the scroll cost when they create a spell tattoo?
Or are these abilities designed solely to save time, by skipping conventional crafting durations and reduce them to a standard action for the sake of expediency?
Doesn't answer my question at all.
I am not looking for an overview of what the various abilities do or how they function. I am specifically asking if class features like the ones referenced above, ignore general game mechanics that require pricing and material costs for the items they are trying to make.
From a strict RAW reading, they do not, and PCs must still pay all relative costs before utilizing the abilities. Otherwise, adjustments to the pricing would be mentioned in each description. But I am asking for clarification to verify that.
It is my understanding that these features exist purely to mitigate craft times, but gold is still expended in the process.
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In a recent session at our table, the topic of item creation came up again and it was pointed out that certain classes possess features that allow them to emulate item creation feats with varying degrees of effectiveness.
Alchemists receive Swift Alchemy at 3rd level. Tattooed sorcerers receive Create Spell Tattoo at 7th level, etc.
While many of these point out they cannot replicate spells that need costly material components (or consume them on use), by RAW, do these class features completely ignore the base game mechanics that require price and material costs? Or are they still subject to those restrictions like the abilities they are emulating?
Does an alchemist not have to pay to make a flask of acid?
Can a tattooed sorcerer bypass needing to pay 4x the scroll cost when they create a spell tattoo?Or are these abilities designed solely to save time, by skipping conventional crafting durations and reduce them to a standard action for the sake of expediency?
Swift Alchemy (Ex): At 3rd level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with astounding speed. It takes an alchemist half the normal amount of time to create alchemical items, and he can apply poison to a weapon as a move action.
Create Spell Tattoo (Su): At 7th level, a tattooed sorcerer can create a spell tattoo (see page 16) once per day with a single touch as a standard action. The recipient of the spell tattoo must be willing to receive the spell tattoo. If she gives the spell tattoo to herself, it does not count against the regular limit of magic tattoos she can have. The spell tattoo must be of a spell that she knows that has no material or focus component. She can maintain one spell tattoo created by this ability at a time—if she uses this ability again, the previous spell tattoo she created fades away. Spell tattoos she creates with Inscribe Magic Tattoo do not count against this limit. She can use this ability twice per day at 11th level, and three times per day at 15th level. This ability replaces the bloodline feat gained at 7th level.
swift alchemy doesn't reduce cost to create anything, just lowers the amount of time it takes.
as for the spell tattoo, im sure the intent is that it doesn't cost anything since it can also just go away if you make another one. it also doesn't give them the ability to make normal spell tattoos since they don't have the feat. thats what the line "She can maintain one spell tattoo created by this ability at a time—if she uses this ability again, the previous spell tattoo she created fades away. Spell tattoos she creates with Inscribe Magic Tattoo do not count against this limit." infers to me anyway
swift alchemy doesn't reduce cost to create anything, just lowers the amount of time it takes.
as for the spell tattoo, im sure the intent is that it doesn't cost anything since it can also just go away if you make another one. it also doesn't give them the ability to make normal spell tattoos since they don't have the feat. thats what the line "She can maintain one spell tattoo created by this ability at a time—if she uses this ability again, the previous spell tattoo she created fades away. Spell tattoos she creates with Inscribe Magic Tattoo do not count against this limit." infers to me anyway
The sorcerer's archetype ability is identical to the standard version, and directly references it in the description; only noting there is a limit to how many this class feature can produce per day and maintain at any given time. These restrictions are not present on the standard feat.
The class feature of the tattooed sorcerer emulates a portion of the standard. The key takeaway is, the very last line of the regular feat stating, "A spell tattoo has a market price four times as much as an equivalent scroll."
Is the class feature version free? Or is it still subject to the increased pricing? Does it function like the alchemist's Swift Alchemy, in that you still must pay all relevant costs, but you expedite the process down to a standard action?
This is the crux of what I am asking.
From the RAW, it appears the Spell Tattoo class feature is identical to the alchemist's Swift Alchemy, in that it does NOT ignore costs, but is only used to minimize crafting time. All signs point to that being the case, but I am asking for additional insight to be certain.
Sorceror-Tattooed Sor archetype Create Spell Tattoo(Su) takes a standard action as a touch and has no gp cost although it does expend a spell slot.
Okay, please cite a source for this and explain how and why it is different from the alchemist's Swift Alchemy, or other class features that perform similar functions, but still require you to spend gold.
RAW-only.
An advisory Note from PFS exists on the ability on the AoN website.that's RAW.
We're not playing sanctioned PFS.
So you don't actually have an explanation from RAW and are simply using your personal conjecture to force conformity? Got it. Your "contribution" is noted.
I asked for a simple explanation on WHY spell tattoos get to ignore gold cost, while things like Swift Alchemy do not, and you are unable to answer.
Due to your desire for a pedantic explanation further explanation beyond RAW text is not necessary. The text is what it is. Simply do what RAW explicitly directs.
There's nothing "pedantic" about it. RAW says spell tattoos cost 4x market price, so that's what we do.
Okay, first everyone takes a deep breath.
Second I have to admit, that first I was agreeing with Azothath and Name Violation that it should be free for a tattooed sorcerer to create his tattoos.
But there more I read into it, the more I lean to Karmics interpretation.
While Swift alchemy and spell tattoo are different things (one mundane/alchemy the other magical) the basic point stays.
Swift alchemy allows the creation of alchemical items in half the normal time, everything else stays normal (cost, skills check, etc.)
Create Spell Tattoo specifies many things like taking only a standard action, how many he can mantain, not counting against the limit of Inscribe Magic Tattoo and some things more.
But nowhere does it say he ignores the cost (or even a needed craft check) to apply it. It references "Spell Tattoo (Page 16)".
There you find rules for crafting and cost of those tattoos (market price 4× of a scroll). Spell Tattoo itself requires Inscribe Magical Tattoo, where rules about the needed craft checks are found.
So while I also think RAI it should be free, and not require a skill check, RAW nothing in the ability says it works different from a normal spell tattoo regarding cost and craft check.
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Thanks to Toshy for reminding everyone to take a breath! Disagreeing is fine, but it seems some of the comments here had turned to insults as well. Let's all remember that these are against our forum guidelines, but disagreeing is not! Please continue but remember, if you get to a point where you're feeling very upset, take a minute to step away before coming back to respond. This might help you do so without insulting anyone, please! Thank you!
I am totally on board with RAI that it should be free and rhe sorcerer beeing able to just magically pop a tattoo on his shoulder, but still to my understanding strict RAW (what Karmic wants) stands against it.
The thing is, spell tattoos, inscribe magical tattoo and the tattooed sorcerer are all from the same book.
There are general rules for spell tattoos (covered by spell tattoo and inscribe magical tattoo on page 16 of ISM) and then there are the specific rules of the tattooed sorcerer (page 40 ISM, after the general rules).
So strictly RAW everything listed by the Sorcerers Create Spell Tattooo ability is a specific rule over-ruling the general rules.
It takes less time than normal, that only one can be maintained at a time, that she can do it more than once per day at higher levels and even mentions that those created by Inscribe Magic Tattoo do not count against the abilities limit.
However, the ability doesn't contain a specific rule regarding cost or craft checks.
The simplest solution would be to add to the abilities description:
Create Spell Tattoo (Su): At 7th level, a tattooed sorcerer can create a spell tattoo (see page 16) once per day with a single touch as a standard action, at no cost and without making an appropriate craft check.[...]
And while I (by all means) believe that this is RAI, it is not RAW. As we won't get any official clarification on that, it's up to every GM to decide.
The closest to an official response would probably be someone who played a tattooed sorcerer in PFS, used the ability and could tell us how it was ruled.
charging a magus the difference in creation cost of enhancing a weapon from using points from the magus's arcane pool
The difference here is that the magus ability says, he can grant his weapon and enhancement bonus for a certain duration, while the sorcerers ability specifically says he creates a spell tattoo (see page 16).
The magus doesn't create a magical item he just temporarily enhances it, so his ability is unrelated to the rules for magic item creation, unlike the sorcerer whose ability even references the magical item he creates.
A point to support the RAW reading can be found in druidic herbalism:
A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Additional concoctions cost the same as creating an equivalent potion using Brew Potion.
This ability says he can create something for free (not to question the balancing of druidic herbalist in general, which isnt balanced at all, just the only example I had in my mind right now).
These are also Extraordinary (Ex) features.
The Create Spell Tattoo ability is a Supernatural (Su) ability. It exists apart from Inscribe Magic Tattoo; it does not require the Inscribe Magic Tattoo feat, a craft check, or payment, because the ability doesn't say it does. RAW (ignoring PFS clarification) it doesn't even require expending the spell slot.
The extraordinary and supernatural distinction is wholly irrelevant to the actual mechanics of the ability in question. Being able to rapidly produce mundane items as opposed to being able to fast-track a magic one. Both are governed by a gameplay subsystem and are subject to the rules of said procedure.
As Toshy noted, Herbalism flat out says the items it creates are free of charge. No such line exists for the archetype ver. of Create Spell Tattoo. Meaning the base feat's 4x cost would still apply by RAW. As far as I can tell, the increase in uses per day also correlates and scales with WBL; in order to offset the higher cost of having a wearable scroll and make use of the accelerated creation time.
Another key aspect of this ability that informs us that we are not actually using the magic item creation rules (or by extension those costs) is that a tattooed sorcerer can do this twice a day at level 11 and thrice at level 15. Magic Item Creation RAW: "Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day."
By RAW, it is still technically magic item creation and directly references the Create Spell Tattoo feat from the same book, meaning crafting checks and costs are still included (these mechanics do not magically stop existing or applying unless directly noted in the ability). However, like with Druidic Herbalism, this is a class feature that creates a specific exemption from the generic rules of "one magic item per day." Similar items, feats, etc. exist that permit exemptions as well.
RAI, this may well have been one of the many oversights on the part of the developers, but that is up to each table to decide for themselves.
And while I (by all means) believe that this is RAI, it is not RAW. As we won't get any official clarification on that, it's up to every GM to decide.
Agreed.
Readers can not change a reference into a directive.
Using that terminology restricts interpretation to explicit print.
The reference is the directive, otherwise it would not have been included in the description of said ability. Once again, RAW vs RAI.
A strict RAW read of the ability includes "(see page 16)." This includes everything provided by the referenced material it points readers to examine; unless specifically noted. Nothing in RAW states you ignore the 4x cost to make the tattoo. And it will remain as such until you or anyone else present RAW material showing otherwise (which you cannot).
Game mechanics and subsystems do not cease to exist simply because they are not referenced at all times. There are dozens of examples where certain abilities or spells appear to create a variety of exemption effects based purely on text, only to neglect the mention of how mechanic X, Y or Z interact with the effect. Those must then be factored and cause a modification to the intended result. That task falls to the GM to determine.