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The thing is amped cantrips as focus spells are not just reactions, or spell attack rolls or one action spells, they are all of that and more, so the popularity of the archetype is also that almost every character can benefit from some new ability they offer, so it was always set up to be a pretty strong archetype. Getting to do the trick three times an encounter is pretty much an at will will ability in most encounters anyway. I am still not on board with no amps for anyone because that basically means no one but full class psychics are psychic, but no one except a psychic should be using more than one amp per encounter.
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Fake out and one for all aid do go off just about every round.So your Fighter, who is also a Gunslinger and a Swashbuckler on top of being a Psychic, is also finding the reactions to Aid allies while also Reactive Striking each round? How fascinating; I'd be very interested in seeing what your character's feats and turns look like.
Champ reaction goes off any time somebody other than the user gets attacked in melee. Always if multiple characters take it.That's very nice, except those reactions are not coming from the same character, are they? It appears we're blending the entire party now into this omni-reactive super-character. Are they all archetyping into the Psychic in addition to the Champion, Gunslinger, and Swashbuckler as well?
Don't be obtuse. I'm pointing out that every member of a party has better things to do than hold their reaction passively waiting for the moment a +1 will change something.
Melee characters are the only ones that remotely have an issue using their reaction(s) every turn since archers have fake out and non-int casters have one for all. Ironically, Psychic has their own unpoachable one for alls with the gathered lore subconscious mind or amp omni scan. And it's not particularly hard to set up situations for those melee characters to do something with their reaction offensively with strikes or defensively. (Side note: subconscious minds are also an entirely unpoachable feature of the class)
And yes, guidance is obviously an option. But it's a fallback option. It's what you use when you have nothing better to do, assuming it comes up in the first place.
Don't be obtuse. I'm pointing out that every member of a party has better things to do than hold their reaction passively waiting for the moment a +1 will change something.
You speak of being obtuse, yet act as if characters being a +1 or +2 shy of a better degree of success is this extreme rarity that you have to hold out for at the expense of everything else you could possibly be doing. That really is not how I've experienced amped guidance, and I very much recommend the Modifiers Matter Foundry module to see just how often a bonus like that makes a difference. It's definitely something that will have more competition if you have a strong reaction like Reactive Strike or a champion's reaction, but neither are so reliable that they crowd the other one out. I personally wouldn't archetype into a Psychic as a Fighter unless I was going for some flavor-first build, but if I did, I would still consider guidance one of the better psi cantrip picks on a class that would otherwise have a poor spellcasting mod.
What I also want to point out here is that even if you're not picking all of those archetypes on the same character, that's still a lot of archetypes for just one character, and the way you keep reactively doubling down to criticisms made of your builds with additional feats just adds to the pile. What you've described are a series of franken-builds that appear to rely far too much on unrestricted Free Archetype to get all of those specific feats in, and on top of that it appears your builds heavily rely on things going exactly as planned, such as monsters always getting knocked prone or your little Champion reaction group huddle never getting punished by a fireball, dragon breath weapon, or similar AoE. I'm not saying this is completely impossible, but if you're truly able to pack in all those different archetypes on top of your class's core feats and do those things without ever having to fall back to different tactics, which in my opinion is a cornerstone of PF2e's gameplay, then it makes sense that a dedication as powerful as the Psychic's would be a drop in the water compared to the sheer amount of stuff your build can do seemingly unchallenged.
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If amps do define the psychic, then the multiclass needs to give at least one amp for the character to be a psychic.
"The Wizard's arcane thesis defines the class, so the multiclass needs to give an arcane thesis."
"Hex cantrips define the Witch, so the multiclass needs to give a hex cantrip."
"The Ranger's hunter's edge defines the class, so the multiclass needs to give a hunter's edge."
"The Fighter's expert-to-legendary weapon proficiency defines the class, so the multiclass needs to give that same proficiency."
I don't know about you, but something tells me that line of logic doesn't really fly.
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Don't be obtuse. I'm pointing out that every member of a party has better things to do than hold their reaction passively waiting for the moment a +1 will change something.You speak of being obtuse, yet act as if characters being a +1 or +2 shy of a better degree of success is this extreme rarity that you have to hold out for at the expense of everything else you could possibly be doing. That really is not how I've experienced amped guidance, and I very much recommend the Modifiers Matter Foundry module to see just how often a bonus like that makes a difference. It's definitely something that will have more competition if you have a strong reaction like Reactive Strike or a champion's reaction, but neither are so reliable that they crowd the other one out. I personally wouldn't archetype into a Psychic as a Fighter unless I was going for some flavor-first build, but if I did, I would still consider guidance one of the better psi cantrip picks on a class that would otherwise have a poor spellcasting mod.
What I also want to point out here is that even if you're not picking all of those archetypes on the same character, that's still a lot of archetypes for just one character, and the way you keep reactively doubling down to criticisms made of your builds with additional feats just adds to the pile. What you've described are a series of franken-builds that appear to rely far too much on unrestricted Free Archetype to get all of those specific feats in, and on top of that it appears your builds heavily rely on things going exactly as planned, such as monsters always getting knocked prone or your little Champion reaction group huddle never getting punished by a fireball, dragon breath weapon, or similar AoE. I'm not saying this is completely impossible, but if you're truly able to pack in all those different archetypes on top of your class's core feats and do those things without ever having to...
You don’t need free archetype to dip for a good reaction, in fact that’s one of the best reasons to dip. If you don’t have a good consistent reaction on a character you’ve probably f$~@ed up your build from an optimization perspective, you’re just letting it go to waste.
And in terms of grabbing good reactions psychic amped guidance is like 3rd or 4th rate, after champion’s reaction, fake out, shield block with support feats (i.e. bastion), maybe reactive strike (can often get that from base class on characters who’d want it, but not always). It’s one option among many and there’s substantial cost to picking it over or in addition to other options.
You don’t need free archetype to dip for a good reaction, in fact that’s one of the best reasons to dip.
Correct, you don't need Free Archetype just to get a decent reaction. However, if you're dipping into two or three separate archetypes, your build is likely to suffer greatly unless you're relying not just on Free Archetype, but a particularly unrestricted version of Free Archetype that lets you powergame without committing to any particular theme. So far, we've been talking about Fighters dipping into not just a Psychic, but also a Swashbuckler and possibly a Champion as well to do this little group huddle and Aid strategy that, in my opinion at least, is not terribly optimized. In a world where you have unlimited feats and actions to pick whatever build you want and achieve what it does with guaranteed success, irrespective of which enemies you're up against, then for sure balance doesn't matter terribly much, but outside of those circumstances, some of those amps do make far more of a difference than any other focus spell available via archetype.
MC rangers do get hunt prey, which is the core mechanic of the ranger. Without the edges it’s not as good, but it lets you use the feats and be a ranger.
The wizard casts spells out of a spellbook. The witch learns spells from a patron who communicates with them through a familiar. The expert to legendary proficiency makes the fighters attacks better than anyone else, but it is the fighting styles the pick up through feats that really defines a fighter. The MC archetype does provide that.
The only unique aspect of the psychic’s casting style is their amps. That is the only thing at Al that makes psychic casting different from other casting. It is even a nod to all the past iterations of psychic/psionic casting in d20 games of having a point based casting system. Without any amps even the little boosts that the psychic cantrips get fade very quickly with leveling up. It would really kill the narrative if psychic MC had no ability to cast amped spells. That seems like it was understood at creation of the dedication.
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MC rangers do get hunt prey, which is the core mechanic of the ranger. Without the edges it’s not as good, but it lets you use the feats and be a ranger.
The wizard casts spells out of a spellbook. The witch learns spells from a patron who communicates with them through a familiar. The expert to legendary proficiency makes the fighters attacks better than anyone else, but it is the fighting styles the pick up through feats that really defines a fighter. The MC archetype does provide that.
The only unique aspect of the psychic’s casting style is their amps. That is the only thing at Al that makes psychic casting different from other casting. It is even a nod to all the past iterations of psychic/psionic casting in d20 games of having a point based casting system. Without any amps even the little boosts that the psychic cantrips get fade very quickly with leveling up. It would really kill the narrative if psychic MC had no ability to cast amped spells. That seems like it was understood at creation of the dedication.
The Wizard isn't the only one who casts from a spellbook, but sure, let's run with this: by this same reasoning, the Psychic's unique casting comes from their psi cantrips, so if the dedication just gave that, you'd absolutely still get to be a Psychic. In fact, if the dedication offered two psi cantrips, with no amps, that would be better than most other caster MC dedications. The very fact that you're happy to settle with watered-down versions of all the other classes' strengths should normally indicate that you should be equally happy with the same on the Psychic.
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You don’t need free archetype to dip for a good reaction, in fact that’s one of the best reasons to dip.Correct, you don't need Free Archetype just to get a decent reaction. However, if you're dipping into two or three separate archetypes, your build is likely to suffer greatly unless you're relying not just on Free Archetype, but a particularly unrestricted version of Free Archetype that lets you powergame without committing to any particular theme. So far, we've been talking about Fighters dipping into not just a Psychic, but also a Swashbuckler and possibly a Champion as well to do this little group huddle and Aid strategy that, in my opinion at least, is not terribly optimized. In a world where you have unlimited feats and actions to pick whatever build you want and achieve what it does with guaranteed success, irrespective of which enemies you're up against, then for sure balance doesn't matter terribly much, but outside of those circumstances, some of those amps do make far more of a difference than any other focus spell available via archetype.
Nobody is saying you have reactive strike, champion’s reaction, fake out, all for one, and amped guidance on one character. Nobody said that. What was said is that those abilities are amped guidance’s competition, and are good enough that you’d usually rather take those than amped guidance. Because yea, usually you can’t just have the all. But you can have 1-2 of them, and usually your best option for a build is something other than amped guidance - it doesn’t always make the cut.
I mean hell let’s add an additional option onto the stack, alchemist dedication can make you 4 10min scaling prey mutagens and 4 advanced alchemy ones. There’s another decent reaction (and other benefits) as competition.
Incorrect. Those are examples of not free archetype where a fighter or a rogue took psychic dedication and did not take guidance.
You may want to actually read the post you're responding to:
Sounds like the builds specifically involve juggling 2 different archetypes by level 9 while supplementing those with main class feats. Sounds an awful lot like the kind of build that is only achievable with incredibly overgenerous Free Archetyping unless you want an incredibly diluted character. It doesn't help that these builds appear to be running on some kind of Schrödinger's Multiclass where they simultaneously have all of the feats and reactions they need to make amped guidance redundant, but also only a subset of those that happen to trigger all the time every round when it comes to listing what those builds do.
Notice how I point not just to the large amount of archetypes gesalt is juggling before even getting to apparently more archetypes, those builds also omit the +3/+4 Aid reactions they were previously listing as ubiquitous at their table. At best, these builds are incredibly diluted and full of redundant choices, such as archetyping into a Champion on a class that already has heavy armor proficiency and a strong reaction, and at best, the actual number of feats required to make all of that and their Aid reactions work would in fact require Free Archetyping. In fact, I would wager that they'd also require far more actions to make work in actual encounters than most characters have, and the stated expectation that monsters always get Tripped on command and complete omission of movement suggest that these builds are both incredibly brittle and completely untested in the field. Regardless, I think it stands to reason that if the Psychic dedication were to lose its amps and Focus Point, that would be the least of those builds' worries. In fact, it may even be an improvement to build diversity, considering the over-reliance on a human ancestry and Psychic Dedication at 9th level for each of these builds.
Picking a conscious mind and getting just the two buffed standard cantrips would still be one of the weaker caster dedications since you wouldn't get to pick cantrips freely. The amp would be pushed back to level 6. Unless that should be removed too.
You appear to have conveniently forgotten that these cantrips would be receiving buffs, meaning your cantrips would be stronger than any you'd get from another dedication. Not just that, but you can in fact choose from a whole range of different cantrips given the selection of conscious minds, so not even that is particularly correct.
But yes, I am advocating to remove amps from Psi Development too. That alone would address the excessive Magus+imaginary weapon combo.
Getting only one focus point for only one cantrip is watered down from two points for three cantrips. Getting only two specific cantrips isn't watered down. It's an empty glass. Most caster dedication feats are empty. This would perhaps be the most empty.
Your glass will always wind up empty if there's a hole at the bottom that you'll never be able to fill. The problem with your line of argumentation here is that nothing ever appears to be enough to you: it's not just that you seem to think the feat is nothing special, it's apparently weak in your eyes. Not just that, but every 2nd-level class feat is apparently weak; nothing satisfies nor ever will. I don't think that's a problem with the feat, and truth be told, that feat could be ten times weaker or stronger and something tells me that wouldn't change your opinion. In the end, it doesn't matter how weak you think everything is, the fact remains that Psychic Dedication offers significantly more than most other caster multiclass feats, which I'm sure you believe are even weaker. In a game that emphasizes balance, that is enough to determine that the feat is too strong and ought to change, ignoring the many other valid reasons to do so.
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Honestly, the prevalence of multiclass archetypes, in particular, is a symptom of the game both failing to scale in certain ways (early class abilities poached via archetyping scale worryingly well) and the game failing to provide in-class solutions to obvious problems (granting strong 1A abilities and reactions).
Too much of the game's mechanical payload is frontloaded. The result is that archetyping grants you features on par with in-class feats of a much higher level in terms of real, in-play value. It's admirable to want to make the stuff you do at level 1-6 remain relevant to a degree throughout the game, but this is a consequence that wasn't really designed around.
And we've talked at length already about how desirable it is to get good third actions and reactions on classes that might natively lack them.
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Sounds like the builds specifically involve juggling 2 different archetypes by level 9 while supplementing those with main class feats. Sounds an awful lot like the kind of build that is only achievable with incredibly overgenerous Free Archetyping unless you want an incredibly diluted character.
>awful kind of build only achievable with “Overgenerous FA”, complicated juggling
>look inside>non-FA character took an archetype and then took multitalented after. What a complicated “juggle”, using multitalented for it’s intended purpose.
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And what the heck are the gunshots in the air about lacking movement anyways? There are a lot of ways to get movement, drink some prey mutagens, cast some longstrider, buy some boots of bounding, buy some spring heels. Whatever. A fighter lacking sudden charge does not make the build bad.
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You seem to think I'm describing a single character and not a party's worth of synergies. Not sure how this wasn't obvious, but I'll try to spell it out for you.
The easiest sample party for this explanation is probably fighter, rogue, magus, bard. Bard one for all's the magus who fake out's for the fighter whose hit triggers the rogue. If the enemy moves, casts, stands from prone, attacks the rogue or if you use a shield, blah, blah, blah the fighter's reaction goes off.
And sure, let's add your beloved amp guidance to the bunch. The ranged characters are basically never using it, opting instead to add a larger circumstance bonus that stacks with a status bonus like lingering inspire and can boost not just failure to success, but success to crit success. The rogue could use it, since they might have prep up and/or fighter might miss. Fighter might use it if none of their other reactions come up. Would I consider not using a different reaction to hold for guidance? Not likely.
And with that, I hope I have clearly laid out this very simple piece of reaction management. You obviously don't need this specific party. Lots of classes have their own unique reactions, champ reaction is easily poached, most martials have reaction attack available in-class, I've even seen a late game character poach opportune backstab for fun. If you aren't getting your reactions off often, maybe invest in one that does.
And come on, I only described the fighter feats from level 2 onwards when the archetype comes up. Sudden charge goes in the level 1 slot of course. As a bonus, if you're having movement issues on charge-less classes like the monk, consider a mutagen collar. Free action a drakeheart mutagen on initiative and expend it for two strides.
>awful kind of build only achievable with “Overgenerous FA”, complicated juggling
>look inside
>non-FA character took an archetype and then took multitalented after. What a complicated “juggle”, using multitalented for it’s intended purpose.
The listed Fighter has exactly one Fighter class feat until level 8. The feat is Vicious Swing. The build is not good.
And what the heck are the gunshots in the air about lacking movement anyways? There are a lot of ways to get movement, drink some prey mutagens, cast some longstrider, buy some boots of bounding, buy some spring heels. Whatever. A fighter lacking sudden charge does not make the build bad.
Ah yes, who could forget that the Vicious Swing fighter didn't need to move either in encounters, but sure, let's also spend actions drinking a rare, AP-specific mutagen to gain a Speed bonus to... save actions moving? Tell me you're running on pure theorycrafting here without telling me you're running on pure theorycrafting.
You seem to think I'm describing a single character and not a party's worth of synergies. Not sure how this wasn't obvious, but I'll try to spell it out for you.
You have appear to missed the part of my post that addresses it already. Allow me to spell it out for you:
It doesn't help that these builds appear to be running on some kind of Schrödinger's Multiclass where they simultaneously have all of the feats and reactions they need to make amped guidance redundant, but also only a subset of those that happen to trigger all the time every round when it comes to listing what those builds do.
Your characters are chimeras whose capabilities have changed over the course of this discussion in response to people's criticism. Initially, you cited +3/+4 Aid reactions as the key reason amped guidance was obsolete in your party, but then switched to Champion reactions later on, and on a Fighter no less. If you were to actually use Aid, or One For All for that matter, you'd notice that you need to designate an ally first, making full coverage a la amped guidance impossible without full commitment from the party (and you still wouldn't cover saving throws, which given your little stated group huddle strategy to trigger Champion reactions would normally be a glaring weakness). Now that I cited mobility as an issue, you're also inserting Sudden Charge into the build when your listed 1st-level feat was Vicious Swing:
Well if we're looking at that fighter for example: Vicious swing (if resist is ever a problem)+elf champ dedication at 2, LoH at 4, reaction at 6 and then if you go the auto-trip route slam down at 8 before tactical reflexes at 10/12 and greater slam at 10/12 or if you're looking to use berms later you take the shoving feats, etc. Psychic at 9 is just a free point.
I will say that even with Sudden Charge, your Fighter is not going to be particularly effective with just two fairly situational feats until level 8. It is apparent that you crafted this build not because you've played it, but because you're trying to prove a point that a character can get lots of reactions and Focus Points in a manner that could make amped guidance less desirable, despite going for a Psychic Dedication. I will therefore restate the obvious, and point out that if the dedication lost its amp and Focus Point, your build would not meaningfully suffer. An overpowered feat therefore does not need to stay overpowered just to satisfy the expectations of this one build.
I will say, as well, that I'm not particularly impressed with the fact that some of us here appear to be this willing to wholeheartedly endorse some terminally theorycrafted build as proof positive that the Psychic Dedication needs its amp. Not only is it ridiculous in and of itself, it's not even relevant to the conversation. The game that aims for balance does not need to harm its balance just because your Vicious Swing Fighter needs an extra Focus Point at 9th level. You could argue that the feat is not in fact unbalanced, but at this point in time even the people insisting that the feat isn't strong have inadvertently admitted that they do in fact acknowledge the feat is above the curve for caster multiclass dedications; they just don't think the feat is strong because they don't think any of those feats are strong. Strip away the pretense, the poor theorycrafting, and the bad-faith argumentation, and we do in fact appear to be in agreement that the Psychic's dedication feat is in fact stronger than other caster dedications. Whether or not that justifies nerfing the feat is still up for debate, but we do in fact have a common ground here that I see no reason in trying to deny.
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>awful kind of build only achievable with “Overgenerous FA”, complicated juggling
>look inside
>non-FA character took an archetype and then took multitalented after. What a complicated “juggle”, using multitalented for it’s intended purpose.The listed Fighter has exactly one Fighter class feat until level 8. The feat is Vicious Swing. The build is not good.
And what the heck are the gunshots in the air about lacking movement anyways? There are a lot of ways to get movement, drink some prey mutagens, cast some longstrider, buy some boots of bounding, buy some spring heels. Whatever. A fighter lacking sudden charge does not make the build bad.Ah yes, who could forget that the Vicious Swing fighter didn't need to move either in encounters, but sure, let's also spend actions drinking a rare, AP-specific mutagen to gain a Speed bonus to... save actions moving? Tell me you're running on pure theorycrafting here without telling me you're running on pure theorycrafting.
Personally I don’t give a s!+@ about rarity, one of the worst systems in the game. I avoid it whenever possible. But don’t act like there aren’t other movement boosts, and that having a higher speed doesn’t save actions moving.
And frankly I don’t see what’s so bad about that fighter build. It has tactical reflexes, it has its core improved knockdown thing. What fighter feats does it need? What could you possibly take that’s beating retributive strike there? And lay on hands is pretty good too. You can’t hyperstition your way to a good build based off number of fighter feats, those feats do things and what is it they’re doing that beats retributive strike?
Personally I don’t give a s*@! about rarity, one of the worst systems in the game. I avoid it whenever possible. But don’t act like there aren’t other movement boosts, and that having a higher speed doesn’t save actions moving.
And what, pray tell, do you need to do in order to move? Do your characters just move around for free?
And rarity exists for a good reason; not every game element needs to be in every campaign. Even beyond that, a lot of AP-specific content is notoriously unbalanced, which is why I and most GMs I know would be reluctant to allow a lot of those options elsewhere. I'm sure it reads all the same when you're just fishing for the perfect answer on AoN, but that's not how it's worked out in the games I've played or run.
And frankly I don’t see what’s so bad about that fighter build. It has tactical reflexes, it has its core improved knockdown thing. What fighter feats does it need? What could you possibly take that’s beating retributive strike there? And lay on hands is pretty good too. You can’t hyperstition your way to a good build based off number of fighter feats, those feats do things and what is it they’re doing that beats retributive strike?
And therein lies your problem. As I have already pointed out to you, this build has exactly one Fighter feat until level 8, and it's situational at best. That you'd jump to level 10/12 without so much as considering how this build would play round-to-round at all the levels before then is yet again further evidence that a lot of the arguments being made here are entirely divorced from actual play. If we're skipping to level 10, that also begs the question of why they didn't just take amped guidance for a strong reaction and Blessed One instead of faffing about with a dedication that grants very little on the class.
What also makes it particularly obvious that gesalt took a FA build and shaved it down here is the order in which they took those feats: Slam Down I would argue is the crux of their build and a significantly more important feat than most others they've listed, and they could have easily taken that at level 4 while still taking their Champion's reaction at level 6 (and, once again, picking an archetype that grants scaling armor proficiency and a reaction on a class with heavy armor and a strong reaction is a dubious proposition). Hard-committing to a dedication that brings virtually nothing on its own to then pick nothing but archetype feats until 8th level is to me a pretty obvious sign that this build is at best designed with FA in mind, and at worst both poorly-constructed and entirely fictitious. In neither case does it reflect an accurate measuring standard for the Psychic dedication's power.
And just to get out of the weeds we've been getting lost in for a hot second: claiming that Psychic Dedication isn't a strong feat just because you're using it for the Focus Point on some kooky build is a patently silly argument. It is a complete non-sequitur, as that build could be anything and does not account for other builds that can and do get far more out of that feat. That you and others would endorse this kind of non-argument just because it agrees with your worldview to me shows just how little regard there is in the present conversation for facts, reason, or just honest discussion. We can and should do better than this.
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And what, pray tell, do you need to do in order to move? Do your characters just move around for free?
They move using less actions than they would have if they had a slower movement speed, because they are more often able to reach the enemy in one stride. As said previously, sudden charge isn’t doing anything if you get there in one stride (or two with spring heels) anyways. Higher movement speed and/or spring heels is a partial to full substitution for sudden charge and many other movement compression actions.
And rarity exists for a good reason; not every game element needs to be in every campaign. Even beyond that, a lot of AP-specific content is notoriously unbalanced, which is why I and most GMs I know would be reluctant to allow a lot of those options elsewhere. I'm sure it reads all the same when you're just fishing for the perfect answer on AoN, but that's not how it's worked out in the games I've played or run.
This ain’t Pf1e anymore, we don’t have unbalanced splatbook flying all over the place. Our most OP b*%!!%#% is core content and usually common. S!*~ like disruptive stance and resentment witch, or anything involving exploiting the drowning rules. Or g!@&~@n instant minefield. The only AP content I can find even close to those is bottled vim and honestly it’s not that big of a deal.
Rarity as currently implemented throws out half the game with the bath water and implements an annoying mother-may-I into the game, as well as numerous undesired side effects like non-sensical repair DCs. Some hypothetical system with clear and separate tags for various forms of flavor restriction, out of combat mechanics you might want to restrict depending on campaign (teleport, create food, zone of truth), and stuff like non-standard PC sizes would work fine. But the current rarity system fails hard at it’s job. 90% of uncommon and rare content poses exactly no threat to the balance of an average campaign, or any problem at all.
And frankly I don’t see what’s so bad about that fighter build. It has tactical reflexes, it has its core improved knockdown thing. What fighter feats does it need? What could you possibly take that’s beating retributive strike there? And lay on hands is pretty good too. You can’t hyperstition your way to a good build based off number of fighter feats, those feats do things and what is it they’re doing that beats retributive strike?And therein lies your problem. As I have already pointed out to you, this build has exactly one Fighter feat until level 8, and it's situational at best. That you'd jump to level 10/12 without so much as considering how this build would play round-to-round at all the levels before then is yet again further evidence that a lot of the arguments being made here are entirely divorced from actual play. If we're skipping to level 10, that also begs the question of why they didn't just take amped guidance for a strong reaction and Blessed One instead of faffing about with a dedication that grants very little on the class.
What also makes it particularly obvious that gesalt took a FA build and shaved it down here is the order in which they took those feats: Slam Down I would argue is the crux of their build and a significantly more important feat than most others they've listed, and they could have easily taken that at level 4 while still taking their Champion's reaction at level 6 (and, once again, picking an archetype that grants scaling armor proficiency and a reaction on a class with heavy armor and a strong reaction is a dubious proposition). Hard-committing to a dedication that brings virtually nothing on its own to then pick nothing but archetype feats until 8th level is to me a pretty obvious sign that this build is at best designed with FA in mind, and at worst both poorly-constructed and entirely fictitious. In neither case does it reflect an accurate measuring standard for the Psychic dedication's power
They wanted to take lay on hands first rather than slam down. Maybe you’d reverse the order, it doesn’t actually change anything else about the build. Please provide concrete examples of actual fighter feats they sacrificed for this build, as in didn’t take at all, or took late with no easy option to just switch it back. Maybe you could cut lay on hands for it.
As for the reaction, retributive strike is f%+&ing amazing. Especially when you have tactical reflexes giving you an additional reaction only for AoO - so your trigger for retributive strike is “someone hit an ally and I don’t expect to AoO *twice*” this round. Idk man seems like a really common trigger - pretty common without tactical reflexes too. A lot of the time enemies just don’t trigger AoO cause they’re just sitting there attacking, or are stepping as to avoid AoO
The dedication itself also sanctifies your strikes, which is a nice side benefit. But really the reaction is enough justification.
They move using less actions than they would have if they had a slower movement speed, because they are more often able to reach the enemy in one stride. As said previously, sudden charge isn’t doing anything if you get there in one stride (or two with spring heels) anyways. Higher movement speed and/or spring heels is a partial to full substitution for sudden charge and many other movement compression actions.
The point is that a build that spends its whole turns Slamming Down, laying on hands, and preparing to Aid is going to be hard-pressed to move, let alone spend actions retrieving and consuming a mutagen while also dealing with grip on a two-handed weapon. This does not cohere terribly well with melee combat, which does require movement and where having a bevy of different Fighter actions to choose from makes all the difference in providing fallback options, an aspect of builds that appears to be conspicuously missing from most theorycrafting despite being a core part of Pathfinder's gameplay.
This ain’t Pf1e anymore, we don’t have unbalanced splatbook flying all over the place. Our most OP b$#!@#*# is core content and usually common. S&$$ like disruptive stance and resentment witch, or anything involving exploiting the drowning rules. Or g#%&**n instant minefield. The only AP content I can find even close to those is bottled vim and honestly it’s not that big of a deal.
Hi, sudden bolt would like to have a word, as would the Prey Mutagen you cited, and the pre-nerf Quick Spring. The game absolutely does have terribly-balanced options from splatbooks, so if you genuinely believe those are unproblematic, that by itself makes it worth taking your opinion on Psychic Dedication with a grain of salt.
Rarity as currently implemented throws out half the game with the bath water and implements an annoying mother-may-I into the game, as well as numerous undesired side effects like non-sensical repair DCs.
I for one am quite happy to not have to deal with things like coming up with a true name for every NPC or someone playing a robot in a campaign where it's wildly out of tone, so I'm quite happy for that element of "mother-may-I" to stay. I get that we've all settled into a mood in this thread where we feel entitled to absolutely everything and where nothing should be disallowed, but I think giving the GM license to veto a few things for the purpose of a better campaign is A Good Thing, actually.
They wanted to take lay on hands first rather than slam down. Maybe you’d reverse the order, it doesn’t actually change anything else about the build. Please provide concrete examples of actual fighter feats they sacrificed for this build, as in didn’t take at all, or took late with no easy option to just switch it back. Maybe you could cut lay on hands for it.
The fact that you consider lay on hands better than Slam Down on a Fighter says a lot. But sure, let's indulge this:
If you really wanted lay on hands and Mercy in there, then you could pick Blessed One at level 2 and Mercy at level 6, but the above is the trajectory I'd normally pick for a two-handed Fighter build with emphasis on reactions.
Yeah, the Psychic Dedication feat obviously works differently than other caster dedication feats, and that could be enough reason to change it. It's not enough reason to gut it, making the only caster dedication that never gets a focus point out of the caster class whose main advertised identity is its use of focus spells.
The Animist doesn't offer focus spells either, so not even this is true.
Oh. The quote says Vicious Swing is at level 2. The champ dedication is also at level 2, from elf
You mean, the ancient elf heritage that grants its multiclass dedication feat at level 1, not 2?
It has two. Lay on Hands at 4 is probably considered more important in a party that's otherwise using only medicine for downtime.
It has one, and even two 1st-level Fighter feats are going to be significantly less effective than higher-level feats. I also question this extreme need for lay on hands when Medicine is really not difficult to invest in, and the party has a Bard on top.
Whoa! When did this become about every 2nd-level class feat?
When you said this:
Most caster dedication feats are empty.
You are most welcome to believe that caster dedications all suck, but even you've ended up admitting that the Psychic's dedication sucks comparatively less in your eyes, so ultimately we're in agreement that the feat's above the curve.
Also, pick 2 out of these 12 cantrips (actually 1 out of these 6 sets of two cantrips) and they get increased range (or something) is some flavor.
What games do you play where range is just "some flavor" to you? Have you truly never encountered any situations where more range would've saved you from putting yourself at risk?
I should also make myself clear. I'm fine with feats being weak. Even being so weak that no rational actor would ever choose them.
So why make such a big fuss about nerfing the Psychic dedication feat? It's the reason you're here, isn't it?
I think if it were to change, then choosing from all the occult cantrips to cast with thought components is more broadly flavorful than only picking a conscious mind cantrip pair with their psi cantrip buffs.
Why then pick a Psychic dedication if you could get the same generic cantrips from other occult casters? What do "thought components" even mean in a post-remaster world?
You. It's just you. You're the only one making that the argument.
If it was just me making that argument, I wouldn't be arguing with anyone. gesalt very much used their build as an excuse to justify keeping the Focus Point on the dedication while trying to downplay the value of amped guidance, and ScooterScoots doubled down on it too. If you don't think this is what's being said when there are plentiful references at hand, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to accuse others of misunderstanding the point.
I've seen the argument that psychic amps are so much more powerful than other focus spells that they shouldn't be available to multiclass psychics, with no supporting evidence.
You mean, the obvious and widely-known synergy mentioned in the thread's OP? Because by the looks of it, you're the one making claims with no supporting evidence here, including claims that are patently false like "the Psychic would be the only caster archetype that would offer no focus points if it got its amps removed".
I've seen the nonsense that psychic amps are the defining feature of psychics, so none should be available to multiclass psychics. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
Non-Psychics shouldn't be able to become better Psychics than the Psychic just by archetyping into the Psychic. It's not a very difficult argument to understand.
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I don't think strong in un-synergized parties is the bar we should be setting for nerfs.Eh, I'd argue that's the most dangerous place, because it leads to the most feelsbad. If you're doing well because you're in a well-synchronised party, the only person feeling bad is the GM. If you're doing well in an un-synchrosied party, you're liable to steal the spotlight and that's the main issue with power level difference, isn't it?
I don't think amps should be barred entirely but I think it should be treated like every other caster dedication and you have to take a separate feat to get the amp. Yes, yes, Blessed One, but Blessed One gives a single focus spell. Psychic dedication gives you choice from close to a dozen, and they definitely aren't stinkers like Wizard focus spells can be.
Stealing the spotlight by using Amped Guidance to aid the rest of the party seems pretty hard to do.
The only broken interaction is with a specific subclass of Magus, not with the dedication or amped spells in general.
I was about to follow up on that Blessed One mention as well, ty ben, lol.
I even have a personal anecdote about that, as I was looking to take an archetype on my SMN PC, and was directly comparing between Blessed One and Oracle.
In the end, I went with Oracle for the flavor of a curse and its different choices of Focus Spells. Blessed One was frontloaded with the FP, but the later feats are a lot less general (except for the L12 Blessed Denial, that's an A ranker right there).
I only later re-read the L1 Oracle feats, and retrained into Nudge the Scales, lol.
And Blessed One is genuinely a great archetype! It's just that once you do the math and understand the comparisons, it's kinda sad how badly "Paiso balance" misses the mark.
Which is why I now totally understand why some tables play with "Free Archetype, but no Class Archetypes" lol.
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Even for those front-loaded with a great focus spell, it is really hard for reg Archetypes like Blessed One to hold up to comparisons vs Class Archetypes, and Psychic very much is a Class Archetype.
Occult is a great spell list for some low R slots to retain long-term value, even for martials.
(at the most simple, one feat is 3 Sure Strikes p day, lol)
Overall, if Psychic's focus spells have any appeal to a PC, the abnormality of a (variable choice) Dedication Focus spell really does translate into 1 spare class feat for something else later.
I agree the Psy's L1/2 feats are rather niche, but if you are there for spells, being able to spend class feats 100% on getting some daily slots and FP makes Psychic more powerful because of that convenience of a potent Dedication feat.
Exactly, and that possibility is offered by no other Class Dedication in the system. It's significantly superior to other caster dedications for that rather wide use-case of "I want to get some spells" lol.
[A focus spell] + [1 cantrip] > [2 cantrips] + [ribbon effect like Cleric's Sanctification option].
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And because everything is cost:benefit, getting those focus spells cheaper than via other caster dedications means that Psy's options are "better" even when compared to similar focus spells.
To rephrase: because you spend costs to get benefits, it means that all benefits are themselves a manifestation of costs. They are never really separated from the costs they required.
(and in a system with retraining, they are literally never separated, lol.)
If you had 2 healing focus spells that had identical HP healing and effects, but one cost 2 feats, it's accurate (but confusing) to say that the 2-feat spell "is worse."
While it's up to the reader to judge how many fewer HP healing the 1 feat spell needs to "break even" with the 2 feat spell, that is a "real" part of the equation, and is exactly why talking about Psychic's Dedication feat is so squirrely.
...If all you want is a decent focus spell and increasing your pool and never plan to invest more Blessed One has just as much to offer as Psychic. Just depends on what you are looking for and if it fits your ability scores...The entire point of the post that I made was to showcase that this is actually not true. Even if the reason you are picking up a dedication is primarily to gain a Focus Point and a decent focus spell and both the Psychic Dedication Level 2 feat and the Blessed One Dedication level 2 feat give that, Psychic Dedication also gives a lot more on top of that. You can't write off gaining access to the improved unamped version of your psi cantrip and access to Occult scrolls and wands as not meaning anything and being balanced equally with Blessed One.
There are only a few occult scrolls/wands you can’t already use with trick magic item though, which you want to take anyways unless you’d also have divine casting (occult + divine or arcane + primal cover the important wands/scrolls very well). The dedication lets you use them in combat well but that’s usually not worth it anyways due to the high cost of scrolls - only time I can see it being relevant is if you have an otherwise free hand and want a wand of shardstorm
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Oh, and another thing: I keep seeing this argument that "X is weak/not amazing/not actually that strong," but unless you back up this opinion with some degree of grounding, it's not an argument, it's just a subjective value judgment that doesn't particularly help inform discussion. By contrast, comparing the thing being discussed to alternatives, such as Psychic Dedication to other caster dedications or the Blessed One dedication, does in fact ground the argument and help establish where the thing sits in the game's balance. In my experience on this thread, some of the people arguing against the feat's power have ended up inadvertently admitting that they still recognize that it's more powerful than other caster dedications; they just think all of those feats are weak. Despite our differing standards for what constitutes a powerful feat, it is therefore possible to agree on whether or not one such feat is an outlier.
There are only a few occult scrolls/wands you can’t already use with trick magic item though
Trick Magic Item requires spending an action to then attempt a skill check to activate an item. Amazing as the feat is, I don't think it can honestly be held as a substitute to being an actual spellcaster and activating scrolls or wands without that action tax or potential unreliability. Being a spellcaster is incredibly in and of itself, and is part of the Psychic dedication feat's package.
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There are only a few occult scrolls/wands you can’t already use with trick magic item though, which you want to take anyways unless you’d also have divine casting (occult + divine or arcane + primal cover the important wands/scrolls very well). The dedication lets you use them in combat well but that’s usually not worth it anyways due to the high cost of scrolls - only time I can see it being relevant is if you have an otherwise free hand and want a wand of shardstorm
That's a surprisingly bad / yikes argument, imo.
Just the 1A spells alone can fill your 3 basic spellcasting slots, no problem. 3 Sure Strikes p day is (sadly) more value than a lot of feats can offer.
And there are plenty of 2A spells worth using where Trk Mgc Item, or simply the action/hand economy of scrolls/wands would make them a whole lot less appealing.
Even something as basic as Helpful Steps can genuinely be the cornerstone of a somewhat cheesy strategy, and you'll really want to make those stairs in 2A so that you still have a Stride left in your turn, lol.
(You can dismiss your steps, and there's a wearable accessory rune to render some falls as non-issues. If the party cooperates and there are melee-only foes on the field, they will want to ascend those stairs. All responses suck for them: waste actions attacking stairs, climb and get dropped, etc.)
