Slam Down:
You make an attack to knock a foe off balance, then follow up immediately with a sweep to topple them. Make a melee Strike. If it hits and deals damage, you can attempt an Athletics check to Trip the creature you hit. If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made both of them.
Question: Player with a reach weapon contends that the weapon is being used for the Slam Down, while the weapon lacks a Trip trait. I contend that the weapon is not being used for the Trip attempt; even the verbiage of Slam Down does not specify that the weapon is being used for the Trip attempt, unless the weapon itself has the Trip trait; nor does it state that this can be done with reach.
Tumble Through:
Specifies that the player moves through a square occupied by an enemy who is unwilling. Incorporeal trait states that the creature and corporeal creatures can move through their square without treating it as difficult terrain:
An incorporeal creature or object has no physical form. It can pass through solid objects, including walls. When inside an object, an incorporeal creature can’t perceive, attack, or interact with anything outside the object, and if it starts its turn in an object, it’s slowed 1 until the end of its turn. A corporeal and an incorporeal creature can pass through one another, but they can’t end their movement in each other’s space.
An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects—only against incorporeal ones—unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune. Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects.
Incorporeal creatures usually have immunity to effects or conditions that require a physical body, like disease, poison, and precision damage. They usually have resistance against all damage (except force damage and damage from Strikes with the ghost touch property rune), with double the resistance against non-magical damage.
Question: Is Tumble Through necessary; can it be done simply to gain Panache when the square is not occupied by a creature who can demonstrate willingness or unwillingness for the other to move through it?
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For slam down:
The player is right, as long as you can hit the target, you can then trip it.
For incorporeal vs tumble through:
tumble through is not a strength based action, often, it has other effects riding alongside the "moving through" a creature base effects, so there's no reason why you can't cartwheel through a ghost (even if you can simply move through the space).
similarily, you could move easily beneath the legs of a sufficiently huge target without a check, but you can still "try" to cartwheel through them instead.
As far as the rules go, it checks out. But even for flavour, "panache" indicates going the extra mile for flamboyance and daring, and what's more daring than doing a cartwheel -that may even fail- just to get your style points instead of boring ol' w"walk through".
shroudb wrote: For slam down:
The player is right, as long as you can hit the target, you can then trip it.
For incorporeal vs tumble through:
tumble through is not a strength based action, often, it has other effects riding alongside the "moving through" a creature base effects, so there's no reason why you can't cartwheel through a ghost (even if you can simply move through the space).
similarily, you could move easily beneath the legs of a sufficiently huge target without a check, but you can still "try" to cartwheel through them instead.
As far as the rules go, it checks out. But even for flavour, "panache" indicates going the extra mile for flamboyance and daring, and what's more daring than doing a cartwheel -that may even fail- just to get your style points instead of boring ol' w"walk through".
Do you have a rules source/errata for that? The slam down text implies that you can trip while wielding a two-handed weapon regardless of having a hand free (implying you can attempt a standard Trip action), not that you Trip with the weapon (which would state that you could add the Trip trait to the weapon for the purpose of the Slam Down action, receiving the benefit of its potency rune, and utilizing other traits on the weapon, such as reach) used for the slam down action.
Likewise, does this mean you can tumble through an empty space for the Panache? Tumble through specifically calls out that you must 'try' to enter the space:
You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy. Attempt an Acrobatics check against the enemy's Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space. You can Tumble Through using Climb, Fly, Swim, or another action instead of Stride in the appropriate environment.
The space of an incorporeal creature can simply be passed through; one needn't try; it would also imply that you're deliberately making the space of the incorporeal creature into difficult terrain rather than regular terrain; in moving through a creature's space (PC 422) it specifically says "If you want to move through an unwilling creature’s space, you can Tumble Through it" - the incorporeal creature is not able to willingly prohibit your movement through its space.
is there errata, or this is just how you rule it on your table?
Cozened wrote: shroudb wrote: For slam down:
The player is right, as long as you can hit the target, you can then trip it.
For incorporeal vs tumble through:
tumble through is not a strength based action, often, it has other effects riding alongside the "moving through" a creature base effects, so there's no reason why you can't cartwheel through a ghost (even if you can simply move through the space).
similarily, you could move easily beneath the legs of a sufficiently huge target without a check, but you can still "try" to cartwheel through them instead.
As far as the rules go, it checks out. But even for flavour, "panache" indicates going the extra mile for flamboyance and daring, and what's more daring than doing a cartwheel -that may even fail- just to get your style points instead of boring ol' w"walk through".
Do you have a rules source/errata for that? The slam down text implies that you can trip while wielding a two-handed weapon regardless of having a hand free (implying you can attempt a standard Trip action), not that you Trip with the weapon (which would state that you could add the Trip trait to the weapon for the purpose of the Slam Down action, receiving the benefit of its potency rune, and utilizing other traits on the weapon, such as reach) used for the slam down action.
Likewise, does this mean you can tumble through an empty space for the Panache? Tumble through specifically calls out that you must 'try' to enter the space:
You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy. Attempt an Acrobatics check against the enemy's Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space. You can Tumble Through using Climb, Fly, Swim, or another action instead of Stride in the appropriate environment.
The space of an incorporeal creature can simply be passed through; one needn't try; it would also imply that you're deliberately making the space of the incorporeal creature into difficult terrain rather than regular terrain; in moving through... It does not simply say "you can trip while holding a two-handed weapon".
It specifically says "if you hit, do a Trip". So, if you hit (using your Reach), you do a Trip.
It is a as simple as that. No need for errata, the source says what the feat does.
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For tumble through, you can indeed tumble through empty terrain, but in that case there's no check, so no panache (because panache is the result of a check). But in case of moving through a space that there's a creature, you can always do a check, so you can get panache.
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Copied from the duplicate thread:
Cozened wrote: Slam Down:
You make an attack to knock a foe off balance, then follow up immediately with a sweep to topple them. Make a melee Strike. If it hits and deals damage, you can attempt an Athletics check to Trip the creature you hit. If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made both of them.
Question: Player with a reach weapon contends that the weapon is being used for the Slam Down, while the weapon lacks a Trip trait. I contend that the weapon is not being used for the Trip attempt; even the verbiage of Slam Down does not specify that the weapon is being used for the Trip attempt, unless the weapon itself has the Trip trait; nor does it state that this can be done with reach.
PC makes a melee Strike. Note that there is zero requirement about the kind of Strike, so yes a Reach weapon without Trip can be used.
Strike hits and deals damage: requirements fulfilled to go to the next step => PC can attempt an Athletics check to trip the creature they hit. Again nothing here says anything about the attack used, so Reach weapon without Trip is still OK.
The only thing about the attack in the feat is a benefit for the PC: if it's a two-handed weapon, you do not need a free hand to trip.
Note that the Trip trait already says that "You can use this weapon to Trip with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand." There would be zero reason to state it in the feat if it could be used only with a weapon with the Trip trait.
So, the player was right.
My point is: if you're not within reach to do the trip (the weapon does not have the Trip trait, but it does have the reach trait), does the slam down still execute?
The Trip itself is done with the body, or with limbs performing a sweep - it is not done with the reach weapon, but must be executed at melee reach (whatever that may be). The feat does not grant Trip to a weapon, complimenting its other traits, i.e., Reach, nor does the feat specifically state that it grants Trip to the weapon, meaning it must be done at base reach of the creature performing this feat.
Given that you have no errata to present, your tone has become combative, and the wording is not vague in that it does not grant Trip to the weapon being used - I thank you for your interpretation and will politely disagree with your reading of the rule. Thank you for responding.
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Cozened wrote: My point is: if you're not within reach to do the trip (the weapon does not have the Trip trait, but it does have the reach trait), does the slam down still execute?
The Trip itself is done with the body, or with limbs performing a sweep - it is not done with the reach weapon, but must be executed at melee reach (whatever that may be). The feat does not grant Trip to a weapon, complimenting its other traits, i.e., Reach, nor does the feat specifically state that it grants Trip to the weapon, meaning it must be done at base reach of the creature performing this feat.
Given that you have no errata to present, your tone has become combative, and the wording is not vague in that it does not grant Trip to the weapon being used - I thank you for your interpretation and will politely disagree with your reading of the rule. Thank you for responding.
I'm not combative, but claiming that there's need for an errata, for an ability that perfectly clear states what it does, tells to me that you already "know" you are correct and refuse to listen to the explanations given:
A Trip is done by whatever method you're are doing it:
It can be done with your hand.
It can be done with a Trip weapon.
It can be done with spells.
It can be done with Feats.
And etc.
In this case, it is specifically done via the Slam Down feat, which says absolutely nothing about you needing to b adjacent to an enemy to perform.
So, you simply do what the feat tells you to do.
So the player is right, and no errata is needed.
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Let me give you a direct example why you're wrong:
Quote:
Telekinetic Maneuver.
Rank 2
Range 60ft
With a rush of telekinetic power, you move a foe or something they carry. You can attempt to Disarm, Reposition, Shove, or Trip the target using a spell attack roll instead of an Athletics check.
According to your logic, because it doesn't specifically says that this Trip can be done in the range of the spell, even though the spell has 60ft range, you STILL need to be adjacent and have a free hand.
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P.s.
When every single poster in both of your threads disagrees with your interpretation, you should really stop and think that maybe it's you who's wrong and not everyone else.
The issue is that Cozened does not trust the ability text to be its own authority, and is presuming that some inherited restrictions apply. That is not the case.
In pf2, if an ability instructs anything, that is what (is allowed to) happens. If it says that "... you then may [do ___ action]" that itself is a "specific override" of the normal requirements of that action.
If the ability text is *not* intending to give a "blank override check," then the text needs to list out the "if ___" conditions needed within its own text.
__________
This rules behavior can be a bit hard to notice from time to time, but it is hard-baked into pf2. Even something as fundamental as Reactive Strike actually *requires* this for it to function as players expect.
By RaW, movement always gets to progress 5ft *before* the action is paused by Reactions. This means that a lot of the time, foes will Stride outside of striking distance, but because Reactive Strike says "... Make a melee Strike against ..." then you are allowed to make that Strike, even though the target may be outside the range of a vanilla Strike at that time.
(R.Strike is written to accommodate that "5ft move first" rule, with its trigger including that "exit a square" text making it go after the move on purpose, but this still results in out-of-reach Strikes being normal behavior for R.Strike that many players don't notice.)
______
To paint this line a bit more clearly: some outside effect needs to "interrupt" the normal function of an ability/effect for that "... then do a ____" text to fail/fizzle/whiff.
This could even be something like a Monk getting a weird "on hit, push foes back 10ft" effect added to their strikes.
(for clarity, Flurry of Blows is a sequence of 2 quick hits, it is not a simultaneous double-impact)
With that active, the first hit of a Flurry of Blows would push the foe back. Even though the Flurry text instructs "Make two unarmed Strikes" the first hit has sent the target out of range before the 2nd swing, and the PC is unable to begin that 2nd, invalid, swing. The Flurry activity text does *not* get to override the "in-world physics" of those events.
Same mechanical consequence of the first Flurry hit rendering the foe an invalid target for the 2nd swing. If you send an undead or construct to 0 HP, they are destroyed, and are no longer a valid target for that 2nd Strike. All such "changes of circumstance" are ways that kind of interruption can happen.
While ability text is very "specific" in that it overrides all normal considerations to grant abnormal permission, that's the "limit line." Any outside effect that applies to events part-way through the ability, that shuffles the ability's normal dominoes around unexpectedly, could possibly prevent some dominoes from being reached.
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