Cozened's page

My point is: if you're not within reach to do the trip (the weapon does not have the Trip trait, but it does have the reach trait), does the slam down still execute?

The Trip itself is done with the body, or with limbs performing a sweep - it is not done with the reach weapon, but must be executed at melee reach (whatever that may be). The feat does not grant Trip to a weapon, complimenting its other traits, i.e., Reach, nor does the feat specifically state that it grants Trip to the weapon, meaning it must be done at base reach of the creature performing this feat.

Given that you have no errata to present, your tone has become combative, and the wording is not vague in that it does not grant Trip to the weapon being used - I thank you for your interpretation and will politely disagree with your reading of the rule. Thank you for responding.

Cozened wrote:

Slam Down:

You make an attack to knock a foe off balance, then follow up immediately with a sweep to topple them. Make a melee Strike. If it hits and deals damage, you can attempt an Athletics check to Trip the creature you hit. If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made both of them.

Question: Player with a reach weapon contends that the weapon is being used for the Slam Down, while the weapon lacks a Trip trait. I contend that the weapon is not being used for the Trip attempt; even the verbiage of Slam Down does not specify that the weapon is being used for the Trip attempt, unless the weapon itself has the Trip trait; nor does it state that this can be done with reach.

PC makes a melee Strike. Note that there is zero requirement about the kind of Strike, so yes a Reach weapon without Trip can be used.

Strike hits and deals damage: requirements fulfilled to go to the next step => PC can attempt an Athletics check to trip the creature they hit. Again nothing here says anything about the attack used, so Reach weapon without Trip is still OK.

The only thing about the attack in the feat is a benefit for the PC: if it's a two-handed weapon, you do not need a free hand to trip.

Note that the Trip trait already says that "You can use this weapon to Trip with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand." There would be zero reason to state it in the feat if it could be used only with a weapon with the Trip trait.

So, the player was right.

The requirement does not state that the attack is made with the weapon. It simply says you can attempt to trip; if wielding a two-handed weapon, you needn't have a hand free for the trip attempt as per the feat requirement, NOT that the weapon used for the strike is used for the Trip attempt, giving it all the relative weapon traits of that striking weapon. The reason it would be stated in the feat is if the person is using slam down with a one-handed weapon would not need such a clarification; the two-handed weapon bypasses the prerequisite for trip to have a hand free, and it specifically does not grant the weapon the trip trait, implying the trip is made with limbs/body weight. Your reasoning appears flawed and incongruous with the wording of the feat; do you have a rules source/errata confirming this?

Cozened wrote:

Tumble Through:

Specifies that the player moves through a square occupied by an enemy who is unwilling.

It in fact does not say that. "You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy." They CAN try to move through an enemy, not that they must. You may use the Tumble Through action to simply Stride and never attempt to move through anyone's space.

pg. 422, PC2:
You can move through the space of a willing creature. If you want to move through an unwilling creature’s space, you can Tumble Through it. You can’t end your turn in a square occupied by another creature, though you can end a move action in its square provided that you immediately use another move action to leave that square. If two creatures end up in the same square by accident, the GM determines which one is forced out of the square (or whether one falls prone).

For slam down:

The player is right, as long as you can hit the target, you can then trip it.

For incorporeal vs tumble through:
tumble through is not a strength based action, often, it has other effects riding alongside the "moving through" a creature base effects, so there's no reason why you can't cartwheel through a ghost (even if you can simply move through the space).

similarily, you could move easily beneath the legs of a sufficiently huge target without a check, but you can still "try" to cartwheel through them instead.

As far as the rules go, it checks out. But even for flavour, "panache" indicates going the extra mile for flamboyance and daring, and what's more daring than doing a cartwheel -that may even fail- just to get your style points instead of boring ol' w"walk through".

Do you have a rules source/errata for that? The slam down text implies that you can trip while wielding a two-handed weapon regardless of having a hand free (implying you can attempt a standard Trip action), not that you Trip with the weapon (which would state that you could add the Trip trait to the weapon for the purpose of the Slam Down action, receiving the benefit of its potency rune, and utilizing other traits on the weapon, such as reach) used for the slam down action.

Likewise, does this mean you can tumble through an empty space for the Panache? Tumble through specifically calls out that you must 'try' to enter the space:
You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy. Attempt an Acrobatics check against the enemy's Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space. You can Tumble Through using Climb, Fly, Swim, or another action instead of Stride in the appropriate environment.

The space of an incorporeal creature can simply be passed through; one needn't try; it would also imply that you're deliberately making the space of the incorporeal creature into difficult terrain rather than regular terrain; in moving through a creature's space (PC 422) it specifically says "If you want to move through an unwilling creature’s space, you can Tumble Through it" - the incorporeal creature is not able to willingly prohibit your movement through its space.

is there errata, or this is just how you rule it on your table?

Slam Down:
You make an attack to knock a foe off balance, then follow up immediately with a sweep to topple them. Make a melee Strike. If it hits and deals damage, you can attempt an Athletics check to Trip the creature you hit. If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made both of them.

Question: Player with a reach weapon contends that the weapon is being used for the Slam Down, while the weapon lacks a Trip trait. I contend that the weapon is not being used for the Trip attempt; even the verbiage of Slam Down does not specify that the weapon is being used for the Trip attempt, unless the weapon itself has the Trip trait; nor does it state that this can be done with reach.

Tumble Through:
Specifies that the player moves through a square occupied by an enemy who is unwilling. Incorporeal trait states that the creature and corporeal creatures can move through their square without treating it as difficult terrain:

An incorporeal creature or object has no physical form. It can pass through solid objects, including walls. When inside an object, an incorporeal creature can’t perceive, attack, or interact with anything outside the object, and if it starts its turn in an object, it’s slowed 1 until the end of its turn. A corporeal and an incorporeal creature can pass through one another, but they can’t end their movement in each other’s space.
An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects—only against incorporeal ones—unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune. Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects.
Incorporeal creatures usually have immunity to effects or conditions that require a physical body, like disease, poison, and precision damage. They usually have resistance against all damage (except force damage and damage from Strikes with the ghost touch property rune), with double the resistance against non-magical damage.

Question: Is Tumble Through necessary; can it be done simply to gain Panache when the square is not occupied by a creature who can demonstrate willingness or unwillingness for the other to move through it?

Slam Down:
You make an attack to knock a foe off balance, then follow up immediately with a sweep to topple them. Make a melee Strike. If it hits and deals damage, you can attempt an Athletics check to Trip the creature you hit. If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made both of them.

Question: Player with a reach weapon contends that the weapon is being used for the Slam Down, while the weapon lacks a Trip trait. I contend that the weapon is not being used for the Trip attempt; even the verbiage of Slam Down does not specify that the weapon is being used for the Trip attempt, unless the weapon itself has the Trip trait; nor does it state that this can be done with reach.

Tumble Through:
Specifies that the player moves through a square occupied by an enemy who is unwilling. Incorporeal trait states that the creature and corporeal creatures can move through their square without treating it as difficult terrain:

An incorporeal creature or object has no physical form. It can pass through solid objects, including walls. When inside an object, an incorporeal creature can’t perceive, attack, or interact with anything outside the object, and if it starts its turn in an object, it’s slowed 1 until the end of its turn. A corporeal and an incorporeal creature can pass through one another, but they can’t end their movement in each other’s space.
An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects—only against incorporeal ones—unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune. Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects.
Incorporeal creatures usually have immunity to effects or conditions that require a physical body, like disease, poison, and precision damage. They usually have resistance against all damage (except force damage and damage from Strikes with the ghost touch property rune), with double the resistance against non-magical damage.

Question: Is Tumble Through necessary; can it be done simply to gain Panache when the square is not occupied by a creature who can demonstrate willingness or unwillingness for the other to move through it?