Darkened Forest Form - Does it restore the temp HP on sustain.

[Svyatoslov]

Title, there doesn't seem to be a consensus. If you change form on sustain does it refresh the temp HP? As part of the line "When you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to darkened forest form's rank."

It seems like it's fairly bad if it doesn't refresh the HP. Compared to the other battle form focus spell in Animist that gives a free strike or Druid's wildshape that doesn't require sustaining. Sure you get to change damage type or movement type but IMO that's not really worth basically being slowed with no other benefit.

[Castilliano]

I'd assume one's already chosen the best damage & movement type and can only maintain that level unless the battlefield changes. So yeah, it's a horrible cost unless one gets h.p./round, and yes, there doesn't seem to be a consensus (not that I've noticed comments on it in months). For balance I'd allow it, and like with all adjudication it'd be provisional depending on how it plays out in practice.

[pauljathome]

Uh, Darkened Forest Form is incredibly useful and quite powerful even if you don't get temp HP more than once. In fact, for balance reasons Id definitely NOT allow it to get temps on a sustain.

In my opinion the sheer flexibility of Darkened Forest Form can be immense, especially when you get to the Elemental Forms.

[Unicore]

How could “you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to darkened forest form's rank.” And “Each time you Sustain this Spell, you can choose to change to a different shape from those available via any of the associated spells,” not include HP. If I go from an Air elemental to a Bear, am I stuck with the AC, attack bonus, damage, movement, etc. of the first form I chose? Temp HP is clearly one of the effects. So I guess the argument is if you don’t change shapes then you don’t get new effects. Change form, get new Temp HP, sustain and keep the same form don’t?

[pauljathome]

Unicore wrote:

How could “you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to darkened forest form's rank.”

Ah, the old "The way that I read an ability is OBVIOUSLY correct, only an idiot could possibly disagree" argument.

Also, of course, damage, AC, attack bonus are NOT changed by your form.

But to answer your question, the spell has the polymorph trait. So, when you cast the spall you get the transformation effect. When you sustain the spell, you do NOT transform, you instead "change to a different shape". Note that "change" is NOT "transform".

And before you claim that I'm a hypocrite, I'm NOT saying that my way of reading the spell is obviously the only way to read the spell. But it is a perfectly reasonable way of reading it.

[Finoan]

I'm also in the camp of: "you can choose to change to a different shape from those available" is not equivalent to re-casting the spell and gaining all of the benefits of the Form spell again.

It is up to the GM and the table to decide exactly what is and is not included, because unfortunately the rules don't list out what stats are part of the shape and what stats are not.

Personally I don't think it should include the temp HP. That is not part of the 'shape'.

[Unicore]

But there is nothing in the game to suggest that AC, for example is different than temp HP as far as an effect of the spell. So if I am transformed into a Huge, rank 5 Ape, and then I sustain and change into an air elemental, do I not get all of the listed statistics and abilities of the air elemental form? The rank 5 Ape's AC is 18+level for example, do I not get the air elemental's 19+level AC? Do my senses not change, nor the types of attacks I can do? All of that is just statistics and abilities of the form, exactly the same as temporary HP.

If the form's temporary HP was supposed to be different from every other effect of a battle form spell, that really needs to be explicitly called out somewhere.

[pauljathome]

Unicore wrote:

But there is nothing in the game to suggest that AC, for example is different than temp HP as far as an effect of the spell.

Yes there is. Temporary hit points state that "You can have temporary Hit Points from only one source at a time". You got them when you first cast the polymorph spell, when you sustain the spell you'd be getting them from the same source so you do NOT gain them.

Is that clear cut and obvious? Most definitely not. But it seems to me to be a quite defensible position from a RAW point of view.

I'll admit that I don't think you should get the temps on a sustain largely because I think that is far too powerful and Animists most certainly do NOT need the power boost.

But I ALSO think that is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the rules that we have. Temporary hit points ARE different from other traits.

[The Raven Black]

I see that the Temporary HPs are part of the specific abilities based on the animal you choose (for Animal Shape). So, I would rule you gain them when you change to a new shape, just like the other abilities.

Since Temp HPs do not stack, I see no TGTBT clause to prevent it and it seems a fair result for paying the Sustain action.

[yellowpete]

pauljathome wrote:

Yes there is. Temporary hit points state that "You can have temporary Hit Points from only one source at a time". You got them when you first cast the polymorph spell, when you sustain the spell you'd be getting them from the same source so you do NOT gain them.

"You can have temporary Hit Points from only one source at a time" is a different statement than "The same source can only grant you temporary Hit Points once" though (otherwise Numbing Tonic/Inexorable Iron/etc. wouldn't work). It also goes on to say that in cases where you would get another instance of temp HP, you get to choose which to keep. So this does not make such a good rules argument against refreshing temp HP from sustaining this Vessel spell.

And given that the temp HP is literally nestled in between AC and senses for the battle form description, it's tough to argue that the rules are intending it to have some special status here, where it's not really an effect of the form but the other things are. It more or less hinges on making a difference between the terms 'shape' and 'form', which to me sound like synonyms in this context.

The balance argument is fair, I can see a doubled numbing tonic effect at level 9 doing some work for sure.

[pauljathome]

The Raven Black wrote:

I see that the Temporary HPs are part of the specific abilities based on the animal you choose (for Animal Shape). So, I would rule you gain them when you change to a new shape, just like the other abilities.

Since Temp HPs do not stack, I see no TGTBT clause to prevent it and it seems a fair result for paying the Sustain action.

The temporary hit points are NOT based on the animal you choose, they're based only on the level and spell that DFF is currently emulating. If DFF didn't scale and only ever let you take L2 Animal Form that would make the "no extra temps on sustain" argument much stronger.

And I still think it is TGTBT to have a constantly regenerating source of temps. The sustain cost is very low post L9 and it gives you immense flexibility.

I'm genuinely curious. It's pretty obvious (to most of us, anyway) that the rules are sufficiently ambiguous that a number of different people are genuinely coming to different conclusions. Is it the case that the conclusion we come to is largely driven by our view of how powerful it is? I admit that is very definitely strongly influencing me.

[R3st8]

i give 1 vote for gain the temporary points on sustain.