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I do agree that the current mechanics are pretty punitive. But I think Undying Familiar is one of the few unique advantages witches have over four slot casters. So I hope they would get something new if every class got Undying.
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Animist also gets a next-day familiar, one that is available through the Animist archetype as well. I think this is the closest equivalent to what you're looking for with the third option. The fact that you can get the option through an archetype makes me think it wouldn't be unreasonable to add a feat to Familiar Master. (For homebrew, I would even suggest that if taking the Familiar Sage dedication can't give you its alternate bonus feat, it should instead reduce the time for familiar replacement.)
For everyone else, they'll need a shikigami specific familiar for six abilities. That's the closest to making it a familiar ability, but it's a lot pricier- which makes me think the daily familiar is "priced" higher than a familiar ability is.
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At the very least, I think the Improved Familiar Attunement Wizard deserves a naturally Undying familiar. It switches the Drain Bonded Item action to Drain Familiar so losing your familiar feels extra bad when you also lose a major action.
I assume it’s the same reasoning Witches get Undying since losing a familiar also means losing several class features. It’s a lot less extreme for Wizards, of course but maybe Witches probably deserve a little more.
Besides that, I’m surprised we don’t have a spell like Summoner’s Precaution but for familiars. Maybe that’s one avenue that could be taken without stepping on the Witch’s toes.
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I do agree that the current mechanics are pretty punitive. But I think Undying Familiar is one of the few unique advantages witches have over four slot casters. So I hope they would get something new if every class got Undying.Undying Familiar isn't a advantage for the witch - it is a necessity for the class to function.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Undying opens up a variety of play styles other characters can't safely do. Aside from the obvious battle usage, it also makes familiar scouting safer and gives you a way to cycle between specific familiars day to day.
If other characters could also do this, I would suggest witches get some kind of buff. Maybe they could revive and heal their familiar as a refocus activity, for example.
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I do agree that the current mechanics are pretty punitive. But I think Undying Familiar is one of the few unique advantages witches have over four slot casters. So I hope they would get something new if every class got Undying.Undying Familiar isn't a advantage for the witch - it is a necessity for the class to function.The two aren't mutually exclusive. Undying opens up a variety of play styles other characters can't safely do. Aside from the obvious battle usage, it also makes familiar scouting safer and gives you a way to cycle between specific familiars day to day.
If other characters could also do this, I would suggest witches get some kind of buff. Maybe they could revive and heal their familiar as a refocus activity, for example.
I know this is already several layers of hypothetical, but "respawn familiar on refocus" feels like it's pushing a little too hard on "You should be spamming Final Sacrifice with your top two ranks of spells". At least, it would if it's at-will.
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I'm personally of the opinion that minion respawns should be shortened a step across the board: by default, you should be able to recover a lost animal companion or familiar the next time you make your daily preparations, without expecting the GM or AP to provide you a week's downtime to recover a core class feature or an important part of your feats. If having this minion is meant to be an extra-important part of your class, as is the case for the Witch, then you should be able to recover a lost minion as an exploration activity within the day, ideally by Refocusing.
And yes, this would make final sacrifice really good on the Witch, and I'd argue that that's completely fine, as you're still sacrificing an important part of your class for the rest of the combat encounter on top of expending a spell slot. If it turns out to be too strong a combo, that could be easily fixed by adding a per-target immunity to the spell via errata, e.g. "if the target was a minion you permanently control, you cannot target that minion again for 1 day even if you recover it sooner", though it is worth noting that this spell is already spammable through low-rank summons.
At the heart of this is the issue of downtime, in my opinion: not every adventure offers downtime, which means that if your permanent minion dies, that can often mean you won't see them again for the whole adventure, or at least some significant portion of it. Because animal companions require a lot of feat investment and the Wizard's Improved Familiar Attunement thesis is meant to be a fairly important part of their character, this can often result in characters feeling like they're only playing half a class for extended periods of time, and this problem I think extends to the Witch if they lose their familiar during the day. I don't think the Witch really has anything that powerful in their kit that justifies the pain of losing so much of their class-defining power for the rest of the adventuring day if their familiar dies, and when I tried homebrewing familiar resurrects on Refocus for Witches at my table it helped avoid that problem entirely, while also encouraging players to use their familiar more aggressively in combat encounters. This was especially useful to a player's Inscribed One Witch, who was otherwise reluctant to use their familiar's special flanking ability when the risk was so high.
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Undying Familiar isn't a advantage for the witch - it is a necessity for the class to function.The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Thank you, lol. That was my exact thought too.
I know this is already several layers of hypothetical, but "respawn familiar on refocus" feels like it's pushing a little too hard on "You should be spamming Final Sacrifice with your top two ranks of spells". At least, it would if it's at-will.
I'm thinking that is a problem with Final Sacrifice. That spell has some flaws in it.
My favorite fix for the spell is to have it only target Minions created by a summoning spell. For a future-proofed wording, have the targeting line be 'a Minion created by an effect with a Sustained duration'.
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Our homebrew is to use the PC rules for dying on familiars and companions (dying 1, wounded 1, recovery checks, etc.).
I'm curious why this is being called a homebrew.
Player characters, their companions, and other significant characters and creatures don't automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out and are at risk of death.
Wait, did you previously just have familiars & ACs die instantly at 0 HP? You do know there are specific familiar types that had [construct] and [undead] tags, which were mechanically meaningful in large part due to trading immunities, etc, for the risk of insta-dying at 0HP?
Or did yall play where familiars & ACs contributed to battle, but were completely immune to foe aggression, AoE damage, and could not die at all?
Both are kinda incredibly alien to me, tbh. If something contributes to combat, it needs to be a valid target.
One of the main downsides of using even the "safe-er" shoulder jockey familiar is that they still get nuked by AoE.
It's so frequent, that I save & spend hero points to avoid my little shoulder-rider from getting 1-shot.
Including at least one incident where they were sent 100% --> 0 by an AoE death effect (on reg fail!).
Literally, spend a hero point and pray.
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I'm not fully convinced final sacrifice abuse is a problem. The witch class has some challenging flavor considerations to play effectively. The best patron is at best chaotic and at worse just wants to watch the world burn. The class trends towards vaguely sinister if not outright evil. Playing a witch optimally already means coming to terms with your familiar being "recyclable" in a way you and your fellow PCs are not. If you wanted to cut back on that, I would suggest adding some flavor text about how the familiar doesn't experience pain the same way as a normal animal because it is essentially a spiritual extension of the patron.
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I'm not fully convinced final sacrifice abuse is a problem. The witch class has some challenging flavor considerations to play effectively. The best patron is at best chaotic and at worse just wants to watch the world burn. The class trends towards vaguely sinister if not outright evil. Playing a witch optimally already means coming to terms with your familiar being "recyclable" in a way you and your fellow PCs are not. If you wanted to cut back on that, I would suggest adding some flavor text about how the familiar doesn't experience pain the same way as a normal animal because it is essentially a spiritual extension of the patron.
Unless the Patron is Zon-Kuthon. In which case, the Witch shall share the pain.
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Wait, did you previously just have familiars & ACs die instantly at 0 HP? You do know there are specific familiar types that had [construct] and [undead] tags, which were mechanically meaningful in large part due to trading immunities, etc, for the risk of insta-dying at 0HP?
Or did yall play where familiars & ACs contributed to battle, but were completely immune to foe aggression, AoE damage, and could not die at all?
Both are kinda incredibly alien to me, tbh. If something contributes to combat, it needs to be a valid target.
One of the main downsides of using even the "safe-er" shoulder jockey familiar is that they still get nuked by AoE.
It's so frequent, that I save & spend hero points to avoid my little shoulder-rider from getting 1-shot.
Including at least one incident where they were sent 100% --> 0 by an AoE death effect (on reg fail!).
Literally, spend a hero point and pray.
By RAW, familiar satchels don't take damage when they are being carried, so they are a solid way to protect a passive familiar. You lose the visual of it riding on your shoulder though.
As long as the GM allows it to be left open so familiars can enter & exit for 1A, the satchel is great.
The 1 bulk is genuinely costly though, some PCs cannot afford the weight.There's also the issue where some GMs will see the "takes AoE damage" as an override to the normal attended items rule, meaning the PC getting fireballed would break the satchel.
The familiar tattoo invested item is another easy to recommend alternative for familiar hopeful folk.
Still 1 (familiar) A to enter/exit, and it's got no bulk. I have certainly had a near death and/or Wounded X familiar peace out and leave me to do my own Quick Alchemy after a round 1 AoE.
The item is just a better version of the Absorb Familiar master ability (which is really not okay imo, but text is text).
What is the Witch losing here?
It looses reasons to main class Witch instead of just Archetyping into the class.
Witch is already one of the very best INT archetypes, and a rather meh main class.
Increasing the appeal / value of the archetype does take away incentive to main class it.
Just look at what they did to Alchemist, lol.
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I think Teridax has the right idea here. At least for familiars, all respawns getting bumped up one notch in efficiency feels fair for everyone.
- Witches: Familiar is free, has Undying, and can respawn once per day
- Other classes with significant familiar features (like the Wizard): Familiar is free and has Undying
- Everyone else: Familiar is a feat and has Undying
Essentially, just normalize Undying on every familiar, but throw the Witch bone. A daily Final Sacrifice, twice for Witch, seems cute at most. I believe the Animist already fits into this mold, so it doesn’t seem too far-fetched.
Are you trolling? Or do you seriously believe that: ...
The concept that buffing the Archetype results in less reason to main-class it, imo is rock solid.
It's about how one personally sees the degree of that shift, of how much is seen as too much.
If both base class and archetype were to be changed / buffed, that would alter the consideration.
But if it's just the Archetype that gets buffed, yeah, that does push things in that direction.
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Archetype Alchemist used to mirror spellcasting archetypes, where you would get access to their new powers at 4 levels behind, and in reduced quantity.
One among many remaster changes was to now offer "non lagging spell item progression," you unlock new spells at the same level a main-class Alch does.
If caster archetypes got to match the max R spells of the base class casters, I certainly hope there would be hella pushback, based in the problem that giving archetypes such power removes huge reason to main-class a spellcaster.
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I'm not sure Familiars need to be at risk.
Magic items contribute in combat ,but we don't target them with area attacks.
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What is the Witch losing here?It looses reasons to main class Witch instead of just Archetyping into the class.Are you trolling? Or do you seriously believe that:
- being a full spellcaster
- the Patron Familiar Ability
- the Patron Hex
- the additional familiar abilities
are not a core selling point of the Witch as your main class?
They are core selling points, just not very strong ones. Wizards aren't considered a very strong class, but with familiar thesis they get:
- being a full spellcaster with one extra spell slot
- their school focus spell
- Drain bonded item
- the additional familiar abilities
- extra spells added to their book from the curriculum every level.
Drain bonded item + extra slots is a lot of added power. Plus, the wizard doesn't need their familiar on the front lines to activate a core class feature or refocus. Witches do, which means they should be sinking some of their additional familiar abilities into survivability. (Flight and life link being my favorites.) So you wind up with less room for other familiar uses, like spell batteries or scouting.
Or compare the witch to the bard. The same number of slots, an extra feat from their muse, counter performance, and more hit points. Plus better base proficiency in weapons, armor, perception, and skills. The patron hex cantrip combined with that familiar ability are at best equivalent value to inspire courage alone, with the exception of the Resentment. The hex/patron familiar combo might provide a better set of bonuses but they are single target where compositions effect the whole battlefield and often at longer range.
I really like the remastered witch but they just aren't that strong a class, and the hidden advantages of an immortal familiar is basically the top mechanical appeal of the class for me. Otherwise I would just play a reflavored wizard.
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I'm not sure Familiars need to be at risk.
Magic items contribute in combat ,but we don't target them with area attacks.
Whether or not that SHOULD be the case from a balance perspective, the rules aren't ambiguous. Attended objects aren't damaged by AoE, and exposed familiars are.
Narratively, I'm also not sure how to justify giving them blanket AoE immunity without changing the definition of familiars from enhanced animals to something closer to eidolons that are the caster's magic shaped into flesh, sharing the casters hit points or something. I would be into that concept but it's a big departure.
Whether or not that SHOULD be the case from a balance perspective, the rules aren't ambiguous. Attended objects aren't damaged by AoE, and exposed familiars are.
Narratively, I'm also not sure how to justify giving them blanket AoE immunity without changing the definition of familiars from enhanced animals to something closer to eidolons that are the caster's magic shaped into flesh, sharing the casters hit points or something. I would be into that concept but it's a big departure.
My Str o Thousands GM literally agreed to do this, lol.
For that PC, the "familiar" is hand-waived as a mutant face, and is a side-grade where there is no separate actor. Many familiar abilities are ineligible due to not making sense, but as a Cheek Pouches mutant rat, they tend to do quick alchemy inside their mouth a lot of the time, lol.
Mostly, it just makes the gameplay smoother because we don't need to consider the extra actor. Though tbh with hindsight it's a bit of a buff instead of a side-grade. I had originally thought loosing the 2nd actor would be more of a loss, but...
My other Alch went all in on the spirit familiar of Scion of Domora after graduating Gatewalkers, and that did not work out at all. It's just not feasible to send out a familiar like an animal companion, full stop. It's a very poorly conceived archetype. The archetype is definitely overpowered AF if you are there to poach the best bits, like that Reaction reroll (which I refused to select), but even in the "combat familiar" archetype, the familiar never escapes being a shoulder-jockey buff for the PC. It's just so much more helpful up there.
This is the PC where I outright just had to dedicate hero points to keep the familiar from getting one shot by AoE in Stolen Fate. I do think this fragility problem gets worse with higher level though, and I don't want to scare people away from familiars as a concept.
I just literally had another reg-fail familiar oneshot tonight lol.
Some kinda weird drake spitting sonic damage at us. Shoulder rider familiar reg failed, all 60 HP gone in impact. Don't have the luxury of Lifelink, and that assumes one can spend the R.
Not a crazy dangerous situation as it was just Dying 1, but still goes to show how stupid the HP math is. This is at L12. You have to plan on your familiar dropping to one shots, which imo is just bad math.
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Oh, and I guess I should count the 1 round (should have) 100 --> 0 ed the familiar too.
This fight had 2 foes, both chucked a cone at the whole party at once. (was definitely scripted for this turn 1 double nuke)
Needed to hero point the 2nd AoE cone to swap from fail to success, else that 2nd impact would have dropped the familiar before they got a chance to move. And yes, as soon as I got a turn, the familiar exited the fight via tattoo.
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How accessible are we talking about?
Outside picking up Animist's Spirit Familiar (achievable lvl. 4), the Shikigami's Mass Produce ability is pretty much Undying Familiar (resummons your familiar every daily preparation).
Accessible by lvl. 6 via Familiar Master, Enhanced Familiar, and Improved Familiar.