My apologies as I know this can be a sensitive issue for some, I'm gonna try to approach this question as respectfully as I can manage. But my apologies in advance if anything comes out as insensitive. So here goes.
Ever since I started reading Starfinder 1E in earnest for Starfinder 2E, I started wondering what the condition of pahtra gender is. Dae and Kyyduh both are agendered, and Dae's Meet the Iconics does confirm that many pahtra are agendered. But frankly, I've been puzzling over the question of "Are there male and female pahtra at all? Or are they all androgynous where identity and lifestyle has more sway on their gender expression, and any pahtra can be with any pahtra for the purpose of a litter. Are gendered pahtra just pahtra that happen to to be further along those scales, or is there a dimorphism where if one wants children, they have to find a specific type?
I was hoping the Player Core would finally address the question, but it didn't. Much as Androids and Shirren have their situations explained, and Maraquoi have their own blurb in 1E about what their situation is. As an example, when I was barely skimming Starfinder, and brought a Pahtra character into a D&D game allowing some Pathfinder and Starfinder lore, I made a male pahtra, because at the time I assumed it was available, and now that I've got to read more of them, I'm left wondering if that was something I wasn't supposed to do.
I wanna be respectful to the lore, and likely would make pahtra more on the agendered expression to be safe. But the question leaves me feeling I just don't have enough information.
For those who have read more books in 1E, as 2E won't have as much resources on it yet, are Pahtra entirely agendered? Do any characters appear that identify as male, female, or as another form of gender altogether? Are there other official statements that further illuminate the question?
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While Pathra might have a higher percentage of people who are agendered or consider themselves such, the Galaxy Guide lists several pathra as agendered, non-binary, male or female in their lore and adventure hooks, such as Aatedzi, a female pahtra politician and Reffka, a male pathra dock worker on the Pulonis spaceport, Starlance (the Pathra homeworld.).
So much as with humans, it seems to be a spectrum of self-identification rather then a biological fact for all of them. Or, again, just spitballing here, maybe it is a biological fact but those with a defined male/female identify mod those traits in with augmentations.
Sci-fi and science-fantasy are wild playgrounds for ideas such as that.
They are noted to be as a species to be very much closer to asexual, however, which is neat, appreciate that.
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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Looking around the Near Space book for 1e, I was able to find canonical pahtra, one male and one female. I think with that and that Dae's backstory says "many" are agender makes your male pahtra perfectly lore compatible (in fact, I think the agenderness of pahtra is new to 2e since I never saw anything indicating that in 1e).
As far as sexuality, 1e also mentioned that pahtra tended towards asexuality but still often formed life partnerships with other individuals or even groups and tend towards communal child-rearing. Explicitly some pahtra do feel sexual attraction and becoming a parent "...earns enough polite respect to feel valued without feeling like an obligation to attain social status."
Lastly, my assumption for sexual dimorphism (and most other traits like arms, legs, breathing apparatus, etc.) in the Starfinder universe is that it's human-like at most unless otherwise specified (relatively minor differences in bone structure/body distribution but not enough to tell the difference unless you're actually familiar with the species).
I assume that every Anscestry has the human amount of sexes and sexual dimorphism, unless it explicitly says otherwise.
Reproduction even on earth alone is a wierd mess:
- there are species that only do self-cloning instead of sexual reproduction. There a species that can do either.
- there are species where the sexual dimorphism include size differences in the orders of magnitude
- there is pollen
- there is bees
If I don't start with the "human default", I would not know how to read any ancestry entry.
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I'm new to Starfinder lore with 2e. I know the playtest rulebook mentioned that a majority of Pahtra are asexual, but the agender population we've seen seems to mostly be a coincidence. I know there's a female Pahtra pop star named Miiyu in a few 1e Society adventures.
I wouldn't be shocked if they were intended to be mostly agender + asexual. But if they were, then they've only communicated half of that. Based on what we know, making a cis male Pahtra seems to be "lore compliant", and not accidentally disrespectful in any way.
This might be something fun to explore in-universe, as well. I'd love a story arc about how Veskarium occupation has lead to a Vesk paperwork nightmare- trying to file all Pahtra under the Vesk understandings of Gender is impossible when Pahtra genders are more determined by fur patterns than biological sex.
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Christopher#2411504 wrote:
- there are species where the sexual dimorphism include size differences in the orders of magnitude
After seeing the video you linked to, I looked up the number for northern giant seadevil anglerfish. Females are 60 times longer and 500,000 times heavier than males. Besides their size difference, their relationship is also orders of magnitude higher on the strangeness scale.
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As Vizzini said, go back to the beginning. ;-)
The pahtra entry in 1E's Alien Archive 2 says (on page 95): "Most pahtras are asexual, and a relatively small number of breeding couples bolster the population with litters of six to eight kits at a time."
My interpretation is that the majority of pahtra are asexual, but there are minorities of (genetically) male and female pahtra who are critical for the propagation of the species.
That doesn't address gender, but given Paizo's dedication to inclusiveness, it doesn't seem like a stretch at all to say that pahtra can identify anywhere on the spectrum of male, female, agender, genderfluid, etc., regardless of any potential reproductive role. It seems highly appropriate that their primary deity is a goddess of freedom!
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Kexarru wrote:
The pahtra entry in 1E's Alien Archive 2 says (on page 95): "Most pahtras are asexual, and a relatively small number of breeding couples bolster the population with litters of six to eight kits at a time."
My interpretation is that the majority of pahtra are asexual, but there are minorities of (genetically) male and female pahtra who are critical for the propagation of the species.
An excerpt from the Unofficial Absalom Station Infosphere Musical Guide To Galactic Genres:
Pahtra Pop: Due to the majority of Pahtra being asexual, there are a lot of Pahtra songs about the service to society provided by those that aren't. These songs tend to portray the role of building the population (hence its start as “Population Music”) as a recurring mythical figure or character role. Songs from their perspective or about the gifts they provide to Pahtras were popular entertainment, and grew to be popular for courtship between the very kinds of Pahtras they're singing about. Most other aliens would know it as “music Pahtra play both in the bedroom and about it”.
Over many years, Pahtra Pop has changed with exposure to other ancestries who tend to not be asexual. An emerging form of Pahtra music star is the highly sexually explicit and high energy “pop star” that plays on this reputation. While some Pahtra see it as offensive and say it fetishizes an important cultural art for the consumption of others, the general sentiment is pride over getting billions of aliens to sing along to ancient Pahtra rhythms.
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Lot of good information you all are bringing forth, I thank you all.
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From what I've read, there are canonical male, female, and agender pahtra, though as for how that prescribes the gender your pahtra can have: it doesn't. Pahtra are a species capable of conceptualizing gender and taking on gender identities, which means that whatever gender you choose for your pahtra character, it's canon. Even if the totality of the pahtra population were agender, having a pahtra with a gender would still be feasible, and in my opinion wouldn't be insensitive at all. Being allowed to embody whichever gender you feel most comfortable with, if you even wish to embody a gender, is kind of the point after all.
As for how your pahtra expresses his gender, I similarly think you can go about it in a variety ways: gender and its expression are informed by culture and perceptions of self, such that the same gender is expressed in as many different ways as there are people of that gender. To take the classic example, there was a time and place in human history where the epitome of masculinity was to wear a wig, makeup, and high heels. Given how many different forms of gender expression exist on Earth right now, let alone across human history, imagine the diversity you could find a whole galaxy full of different species! Depending on your character's upbringing, which planets or stations they spent a lot of time in, which kinds of cultures they were exposed to and which ones they identify with, your male pahtra could express himself in a variety of ways, whether it's a very low-key gender expression closer to agender members of his ancestry, or perhaps a more high-key expression akin to men of another species. If you want to be super-specific, this could even be the expression of men in the culture of a particular planet! Probably not a lot of canon material to cover this level of detail, but certainly something to consider for roleplay or worldbuilding...
Driftbourne wrote: Christopher#2411504 wrote:
- there are species where the sexual dimorphism include size differences in the orders of magnitude
After seeing the video you linked to, I looked up the number for northern giant seadevil anglerfish. Females are 60 times longer and 500,000 times heavier than males. Besides their size difference, their relationship is also orders of magnitude higher on the strangeness scale.
And then there are the Cetomimidae Family of fish.
Whose male, female and larval stages are are so different, we thought they were three different fish families for over a century. We literrally needed DNA testing to confirm they are related.
Even reproduction on earth is wierd, once you get into details.
Which is why I assume the human range from Starfinder Ancestries, unless it says otherwise.
Recent threads in Starfinder General Discussion
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