Can a swashbuckler with a whip use the parry and riposte deed? By default, whips don't threaten unless you have improved whip mastery. Parry and riposte doesn't state the attacker must be threatened.
Comment: whips {are a poor choice}[expletive deleted] and not in a good way. 34 feats later...they still {are a poor choice}[expletive deleted].
Swashbuckler class
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Swashbucklers are proficient with simple and martial weapons, as well as light armor and bucklers.
whip exotic 1hnd slashing weapon.
scorpion whip exotic light slashing weapon.
The Whip Mastery chain of feats doesn't alter the weapon type.
Panache(Ex)
Critical Hit with a Light or One-Handed Piercing Melee Weapon: Each time the swashbuckler confirms a critical hit with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, she regains 1 panache point. ...
Killing Blow with a Light or One-Handed Piercing Melee Weapon: When the swashbuckler reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon attack while in combat, she regains 1 panache point. ...
Deeds: does not mention a weapon type or proficiency.
Swashbuckler Finesse(Ex): requires light or one-handed piercing melee weapons.
Swashbuckler Weapon Training(Ex): requires light or one-handed piercing melee weapons.
Swashbuckler Weapon Mastery(Ex): requires light or one-handed piercing melee weapons.
Swashbuckler Deeds where Opportune Parry and Riposte(Ex) does not mention a weapon type or proficiency. But see above...
Okayo Corsair archetype opens up Monk Weapons Group and has the nine-section whip exotic 1hnd B but no reach.
+++ Mysterious Avenger archetype opens up the whip with several strings attached.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
While parry and riposte does not explicitly state you have to be threatening a square it does explicitly state you need to be able to spend an attack of opportunity. Since a whip does not threaten you do not have an attack or opportunity to use for the parry.
Ignoring the suitability of whips discussion, I would say the PC could attempt the parry, but would not be able to riposte without improved whip mastery or similar ability.
Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) (Advanced Class Guide pg. 57) wrote:
: At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack.The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll. If her result is greater than the attacking creature’s result, the creature’s attack automatically misses. The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made. Upon performing a successful parry and if she has at least 1 panache point, the swashbuckler can as an immediate action make an attack against the creature whose attack she parried, provided that creature is within her reach. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the number of panache points a deed costs.
While I understand that the combination of the italicized and bolded statements sound like the swashbuckler is making an AoO, similar wording is used in Cut from the Air, which states, "As an attack of opportunity, make a melee attack roll at your highest bonus. If the result is greater than the attack roll total of the ranged attack, the attack is deflected." That feat has a situation where it is there is no "threatening," as there are no such rules for threatening projectiles or thrown weapons. Likewise, parrying a melee weapon should not require threatening the creature wielding the weapon. The riposte, however, would.
I read the italicized and bolded as two separate parts: the cost in expending an AoO, and then the roll to make (the AoO phrasing here mostly important for which modifiers will be added). This interpretation allows a swashbuckler to parry reach weapons or attacks from large creatures using their natural reach, even if they are unable to riposte those attacks.
If you read the first line in the quote, I posted you will see that you do not threaten a target you threaten a square. Since Cut from the Air requires you to be armed you are in fact threatening the square the ranged attack travels through.
Opportune Parry and Riposte states “as if she were making an attack of opportunity.” That means you must satisfy all the requirements of an AoO or cannot perform the deed.
You're right, I was focused on the second to last sentence about the enemy being in the threatened area. Also was thinking of other abilities that allow one to spend attacks of opportunity to do things other than attack rolls.
Whip user would require improved whip mastery to do opportune parry and riposte.
I think the Avenger Finesse ability in itself makes it clear it allows the Mysterious Avenger to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with a whip. It's as specific a caveat to the general rule (that you do not threaten with a whip and thus cannot take attacks of opportunity with it) as you could hope for:
Advanced Class Guide said wrote:
Avenger Finesse (Ex): A mysterious avenger gains all of the benefits of the swashbuckler’s finesse class feature, and gains the ability to use a whip in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for all swashbuckler class features and deeds. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
The Mysterious Avenger's list of deeds has not been altered. Ergo, a Mysterious Avenger can use a whip in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed.
Mysterious Avenger would still need the whip mastery feats to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with a whip. The Mysterious Avenger can still use all swashbuckler class features with a one-handed piercing weapon. If he does not have whip mastery and is next to an enemy, he is going to provoke an AoO when using it.
Setting aside the argument about whether whips are any good (I actually happen to think whips are quite decent weapons, for what it's worth), the answer is yes, you should be able to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with a whip.
First, Opportune Parry and Riposte is its own ability. It is not an expanded attack of opportunity (or AoO for short) mechanic. There are plenty of abilities and items that perform their action "as an attack of opportunity" but Opportune Parry and Riposte does not. It simply consumes an AoO use and then tells you to make the attack roll as if you were making an attack of opportunity. Note that it says "make an attack roll [emphasis added] as if she were making an attack of opportunity" and not "make an attack as if she were making an attack of opportunity." Only the roll is affected by effects that apply to attacks of opportunity. The attack itself is not. Not to mention that for parrying a melee attack the enemy's weapon itself is trying to make contact with you, so a threatened area test need not apply (and there is indeed no requirement for a threatened area stated in the ability). You could parry even if you have no threatened area to speak of, so long as your weapon is capable of making the attack.
Second, it says that you can make an attack against the creature whose attack you parried as an immediate action (the "riposte"), provided that creature is within your reach. This part of the ability is definitely not an attack of opportunity (and does not receive any attack bonuses you might have for attacks of opportunity, unlike the "parry") and specifically states you may attack the target so long as he is within your reach, which is not the same as your threatened area (which it could easily have stated instead), and therefore you can indeed take this attack with a whip, regardless of your threatened area.
As such, you can indeed both parry and riposte with whips regardless of threatened area, as neither the parry nor the riposte require a threatened area.
And I may as well add that while the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed does not require the weapon to be a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, there are many other class features that would not work with the whip (as it is a one-handed slashing weapon). You will need to use the Slashing Grace feat or Mysterious Avenger archetype to make them apply.
Mysterious Avenger would still need the whip mastery feats to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with a whip. The Mysterious Avenger can still use all swashbuckler class features with a one-handed piercing weapon.
I don't see why. Again, the Avenger Finesse ability offers a very specific exception to the general rule: it states, quite clearly, that a Mysterious Avenger can use the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed with a whip; that the archetype still allows a character to do so with a light or one-handed piercing weapon is neither here nor there.
Quote:
If he does not have whip mastery and is next to an enemy, he is going to provoke an AoO when using it.
That certainly certainly shouldn't be up for dispute. If your argument is that "the Mysterious Avenger would still need the whip mastery feats to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with a whip without provoking an attack of opportunity," then fair enough. I still think a given table would benefit from a RAW/RAI discussion as to whether using OP&R to parry an attack but not riposte would still provoke an AOO, but that's another topic.
I must respectfully disagree. Avenger Finesse specifies you can use a whip in place of a light or one-handed piercing weapon. There is no mention of Opportune Parry and Riposte requiring a light- or one-handed piercing weapon. Therefore, Avenger's Finesse does not allow you to use a whip for Opportune Parry and Riposte.
As long as the swashbuckler can make an AoO they can use Opportune Parry and Riposte. If the swashbuckler has improved unarmed strike they can use it without a weapon.
Basically, what Avenger’s Finesse does change light or one-handed piercing weapon to light or one-hane4d piercing weapon and whip anywhere the description says light or one-handed piercing weapon. That phrase is not used in Opportune Parry and Riposte, so does nothing for that ability.
I must respectfully disagree as well, Mysterious Stranger.
Avenger Finesse does not say "and gains the ability to use a whip in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for all swashbuckler class features and deeds with which a whip could normally be used" or "all swashbuckler class features and deeds that require a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon." The only exception that this ability qualifies is to the general rule, by allowing whips to be used with "all deeds."
You're arguing for an unstated exception to "all deeds," and citing for support a lack of language for light or one-handed weapons in the description of the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed, but that takes us to the realm of Rules as Intended. The Rules as Written are that a Mysterious Avenger may use a whip with all swashbuckler deeds.
Avenger Finesse (Ex): A mysterious avenger gains all of the benefits of the swashbuckler’s finesse class feature, and gains the ability to use a whip in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for all swashbuckler class features and deeds. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
Please read the description again, particularly the bolded section. That directly states that you can use a whip instead of a light or one-handed piercing weapon. The first part of the sentence is just as important as the last part.
If the GM wants to allow a mysterious avenger to use it without the weapon mastery feats that is their prerogative, but that becomes a house rule. RAW they need the feats to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with a whip.
As I have already explained, there is no need for whip mastery feats in order to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with a whip. By RAW, there is no requirement detailed whatsoever for a threatened area when performing the deed's mechanics nor is the act of parrying (or riposting) an actual attack of opportunity. However, the Whip Mastery feat would still be advised so that you do not provoke AoOs with your whip when parrying or riposting (but I would grant that attacking enemy cannot take an AoO when you parry him because he is already busy making an attack with his weapon, unless that foe can attack with another weapon (and limb) for his AoO).
To be frank, it is inventing threatened area restrictions for parrying or riposting that would be a houserule.
It is also true that the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed does not require a light or one-handed piercing weapon to be performed and can indeed be performed with any weapon. Mysterious Avenger indeed does not change anything here, but it is also not needed to use the deed with a whip in the first place.
That would mean that a swashbuckler can use any weapon including a bow for Opportune Parry and Riposte to parry an attack.
Nothing prevents you from making an AoO with a weapon you are attacking with. If it did you could not make an AoO against a foe moving out of their square once you had been attacked.
That would mean that a swashbuckler can use any weapon including a bow for Opportune Parry and Riposte to parry an attack.
Nothing prevents you from making an AoO with a weapon you are attacking with. If it did you could not make an AoO against a foe moving out of their square once you had been attacked.
Not really a rules-related statement:
Parrying an attack with a bow is pretty standard fare in action movies, so that's not really too crazy. We can see examples of parries with everything from bare hands to improvised weapons throughout literature and cinema.
Rules-wise, we are back to the question of which feats, if any, are required before a PC can do so.
If you read the first line in the quote, I posted you will see that you do not threaten a target you threaten a square. Since Cut from the Air requires you to be armed you are in fact threatening the square the ranged attack travels through.
Opportune Parry and Riposte states “as if she were making an attack of opportunity.” That means you must satisfy all the requirements of an AoO or cannot perform the deed.
Are you claiming that you cannot parry a reach weapon? Becuse if you must use all the AOO rules then you do not threaten someone with greater reach than you.
you are seeing a lot of slightly differing opinions. I say slight as they are mostly about technical details which then lead to differing conclusions
I think we need to review old threads on the same topic and current FAQs.
There are two basic issues as I see it; Class (interaction) and then weapon issues (mainly from threat range and thus ability to make an AoO with the weapon or in the round). RAW is interacting with all of these to some degree in different ways, so sure, it is complicated. Then there is the level of word-for-word pedantic reading (and the FAQs can help here). All of that explains the diversity of opinion.
I've followed the thread and read other threads on the same topic and several FAQs, just haven't posted again as it'll be long due to the complexity of the issues.
That would mean that a swashbuckler can use any weapon including a bow for Opportune Parry and Riposte to parry an attack.
Certainly, if you don't mind using it as an improvised melee weapon. You may end up taking a -4 penalty for that, however. But there are ways to use it proficiently as an improvised weapon (such as the Catch Off-Guard feat) or as a regular melee weapon (such as the Bowstaff spell or Empty Quiver Style feat).
Quote:
Nothing prevents you from making an AoO with a weapon you are attacking with. If it did you could not make an AoO against a foe moving out of their square once you had been attacked.
I'm not saying you can't perform AoOs with weapons that are used to attack that round. This is more of a personal common sense ruling but if you are mid-swing attacking with your sword and at that moment the defender's parry provokes an AoO I think using your sword that is still being parried to take that AoO is a bit too ridiculous. You can still take AoOs with it the rest of the time.
Re the original question: Opportune Parry & Riposte (hereafter OP&R) interacts with Attacks of Opportunity in two ways: It uses up an AoO, and the attack roll is made as if you were making an AoO, but it is not itself an AoO (if it were, there would be no need to specify that was like one in two specific ways).
As such, it does not inherit any of the qualities or requirements of an AoO other than those relating to the Attack Roll (and needing an AoO available in the first place, of course). There is no need to threaten anyone, because although you are making an attack you are not making it against anything in particular - it is not compared with anything's AC.
TLDR: The only requirement for a weapon to do the Parry part of OP&R is that you can make an attack roll with it. You can make an attack roll with a whip, so it is fine (if suboptimal).
Re Avenger Finesse: It is, as noted above, not required to Parry with a whip. If threatening were necessary, Avenger Finesse would not help - it lets a whip count as one handed & piercing; it does not let it count as threatening.
Re Parrying with a bow: Yes, of course you can. As noted above, the only requirement is that it is a weapon you can make an attack roll with.
However, barring some extra flange, you cannot Riposte with a bow (except as an improvised weapon). Unlike the Parry, the Riposte is against a creature, and that creature needs to be within reach. Ranged weapons do not have reach, they have range.
Re taking an AoO in the middle of another attack: It's fine IMNSO. Or rather, given that everything that happens in combat is highly abstracted for playability, especially when it comes to timing, "in the middle of a swing" is not something that is really defined.
Unless you think that everyone actually stands motionless waiting for everyone else to take their turns one at a time?
Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity;
While Opportune Parry and Riposte is not an AoO it requires the swashbuckler to expend a use of an AoO. There is no question that if the swashbuckler has already taken all his AoO for that round that he can no longer use Opportune Parry and Riposte. That makes it clear that to use the deed the swashbuckler needs to have an AoO to use to parry. If you do not threaten a square, do you have an AoO available to expend? If not, you cannot use the use the deed.
If the attack roll is not treated as an AoO it means it must follow the rules of attack rolls. That means using it takes a standard action and prevents the swashbuckler from taking any other attacks that round. But the second sentence is the description changes that changing the rules from a standard attack to those of an AoO. This allows the swashbuckler to parry an attack and still attack; it also means the attack roll for the parry is at full attack bonus. If you are allowing the swashbuckler to the benefits of it being an AoO you must take the negative aspects of an AoO.
So, if in your game using Opportune Parry and Riposte is a standard action that basically prevents the swashbuckler from attacking that round, I can accept that. But that is no how I do it in games I run.
Parry and riposte says nothing whatsorever about weapon types.
You can parry with basically anything.
If you succesfully parry, you can riposte if you meet the requirements for "make an attack" which specifically states reach on the target, as such:
--You can parry reach weapons, but often not riposte them, unless you also have reach with the weapon you are parrying with.
--You can parry with a reach weapon, or a really big weapon, or next to anything
--You can parry with one weapon and riposte with another one. Which can be quite relevant if you have like, an answering off hand weapon and a more damaging main hand weapon. I would argue that TWF penalties, or secondary natrual attack penalties, apply in this case.
I see nothing against being unable to abuse parry and riposte to get an extra attack, by provoking an AoO during your turn and parry and riposting that.
Note, you almost certainly cant get more then one attack per turn since the riposte is an immidiate action.
Swashbuckler Deed: Opportune Parry and Riposte(Ex):
At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler (F->A), she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity (A->F) to attempt to parry that attack (F->A).
The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity (A->F); for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll (B).
If her result is greater than the attacking creature’s result, the creature’s attack automatically misses.
The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made.
Upon performing a successful parry and if she has at least 1 panache point (C), the swashbuckler can as an immediate action make an attack against the creature whose attack she parried, provided that creature is within her reach (A->F, D).
This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the number of panache points a deed costs.
my reading on the above.
Reach and threaten are somewhat synonomous. You can have reach but not threaten (secondary attack or non-threating weapon). Your natural reach may not make it but a reach weapon gives you extra reach. So with threaten requiring reach, it's a harder criteria to meet.
Ally(A), Foe(F)
(A->F or F->A) implies reach & threat needed as Ally threatens Foe or vice versa.
(B) Implies larger creatures attacks are harder to Parry. Does not imply Ally does not have Reach on Foe although it is possible and at times likely.
(C) Swashbuckler starts with 2 Panache to Riposte.
(D) This statement is redundant rather than implying Ally does not need to threaten Foe to Parry. It is interpretive to imply this means more than it does as a redundant statement.
It would have been clear at the end of the first line to say, "to attempt to parry that attack even without threatening the attacker." ACG came out 08/14/2014 and there's been no FAQ or clairification on Swashbuckler, panache, or grit.
I'll say the Ally(swashbuckler) needs to have the ability to make an AoO with regards to Dex and/or Combat Reflexes and a point of panache.
For Swashbuckler and Mysterious Avenger arch the Parry is a melee attack with a weapon rather than a thrown, ranged, IUS, or natural attack.
It is assumed that the Foe is using a melee attack or natural attack.
Does the Ally with Parry vs a Foe's attack treat the AoO as;
1) viable with a weapon that threatens the Foe (usual case). OR
2) just expending an unused AoO.
It would be a first for the 2nd interpretation so I can't see that without the developers saying more on this unusual use. Thus going with #1 seems the usual choice especially without extra clarification. Adding to that is for the vast majority of cases the Ally and Foe both threaten each other. The text noting "as if she were making an attack of opportunity" isn't needed if the swashbuckler is just expending an unused AoO. Adding whip just complicates the situation with its threat range.
#1) brings up the usual situations where even with the capability to make an AoO reach and threaten rules prevent it. See my annotated spoiler and the link above to AoO. This makes threatening essential to Parry. It's analogous to flanking/denying Dex to AC for inflicting Precision(Sneak Attack) damage.
Overall the whip helps but it comes with its own problems.
Reviewing PFS Campaign Clarifications;
• Adventurer's Guide, Page 23 — A Rostland bravo treats an Aldori dueling sword as a light or one-handed piercing weapon for the purpose of all swashbuckler class abilities.
• Ultimate Wilderness, Page 95 — Unlike a typical swashbuckler, an arrow champion does not regain panache from critical hits.
An arrow champion regains panache when she makes a killing blow with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon or a bow (a longbow, shortbow, composite longbow, or composite shortbow).
This alters panache.
= = = end of spoiler = = =
so killing blow but not criticals, that's gonna hurt. Shooting prone targets IS harder but the unconscious don't get Dex to AC...This shows that without an exception (as in the RAW for this archetype) panache could not be regained.
Retaliation(Ex):
When a foe hits the arrow champion with an attack, she can spend 1 panache point to make a retaliatory attack of opportunity against that foe. If the triggering attack is a melee attack, she can retaliate with a melee attack using a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, provided the creature is within her reach. If the triggering attack is a ranged attack, she can retaliate with a ranged attack using a bow, provided that the creature is within 30 feet of her. This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the number of panache points a deed costs.
This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
= = = end of spoiler = = =
one has to assume the weapon is drawn and in hand OR Quick Draw feat has been taken. Again, melee attack on foe within Reach (or threatened).
On the second issue (Weapon, from my above post).
...
Does the Ally with Parry vs a Foe's attack treat the AoO as;
1) viable with a weapon that threatens the Foe (usual case). OR
2) just expending an unused AoO.
It would be a first for the 2nd interpretation so I can't see that without the developers saying more on this unusual use. Thus going with #1 seems the usual choice especially without extra clarification. Adding to that is for the vast majority of cases the Ally and Foe both threaten each other. The text noting "as if she were making an attack of opportunity" isn't needed if the swashbuckler is just expending an unused AoO. Adding whip just complicates the situation with its threat range.
...
I've read a lot of threads where GMs use option #2.
Some of them advise removing "as if she were making an attack of opportunity". I can see that and it is simplistic.
I'm just reading it with an eye to detail and so I choose #1 conservatively.
As the vast majority of the interactions will be simple it's not going to have a big impact one way or the other, maybe a move 5ft here and there.
As for Parry with anything, it's possible given the text but it's clear that the swashbuckler's preferred weapon is assumed or intended. There are consequences to Riposte for using a poor choice. I'll note also the ACG had 12 pages of errata in tiny text and set a new low for quality at the time.
Recovering Panache is very important. With resources(gold) the way they are PC's only pump up 1 or maybe 2 weapons with decent enhancement bonuses, maybe 2 more are at +1. So I don't see the practical reason to use a mundane non-threatening attack that provokes or a sub-par weapon. Maybe you want to waste panache? Maybe you want to provoke your GM to say you cannot parry AoOs. IDK... it doesn't seem productive.
Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity;
You bolded the wrong part: The key part is "makes and attack roll" - IOW, nothing else about it is "as if making an attack of opportunity" (except the action cost, from the previous sentence).
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
While Opportune Parry and Riposte is not an AoO it requires the swashbuckler to expend a use of an AoO. There is no question that if the swashbuckler has already taken all his AoO for that round that he can no longer use Opportune Parry and Riposte.
You are correct, there is no question over that, so why are you bringing it up?
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
That makes it clear that to use the deed the swashbuckler needs to have an AoO to use to parry. If you do not threaten a square, do you have an AoO available to expend?
Yes, of course you do. Everyone gets one (people with Combat Reflexes potentially get more), and you obviously have not expended it.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
So, if in your game using Opportune Parry and Riposte is a standard action that basically prevents the swashbuckler from attacking that round, I can accept that. But that is no how I do it in games I run.
Firstly, there is no general rule that non-AoO attack rolls mean Standard Actions - there all kinds of different attacks with attack rolls, with action costs everywhere from Free to Full Round (if not beyond). Secondly, even if there were, OP&R explicitly spells out its action costs so it would be overriden.
Azothath wrote:
Does the Ally with Parry vs a Foe's attack treat the AoO as
The question is based on a faulty premise, as there is no AoO happening to be treated as anything.
Great, looks like the consensus is clear: expect table variation!
Side note since Azothath brought it up, the Arrow Champion's Retaliation is worded as "a retaliatory attack of opportunity," yet can be done with a bow against a ranged attack within 30 feet. Which isn't evidence for OP&R of this discussion, per se, but does show that writers can have little regard to rules of AoO when they write abilities.
I'm personally amused at the thought of a whip-using swashbuckler with combat reflexes parrying an attack by another creature with combat reflexes.
Cr.: attacks swash
Swash: I parry
Cr.: you used an attack roll with a whip, that provokes, I roll an AoO
Swash: I parry
Cr.: that provokes again, I roll AoO
Swash: I parry
...
yes, I could have phrased it better to avoid your pedantic reading on the onset. It's making a valid point on "how do you interpret this paragraph" and that there are two ways to go given the text. I think less text in the description would have been better for conclusion #2.
I grok do u wrote:
Great, looks like the consensus is clear: expect table variation!
Side note since Azothath brought it up, the Arrow Champion's Retaliation is worded as "a retaliatory attack of opportunity," yet can be done with a bow against a ranged attack within 30 feet. Which isn't evidence for OP&R of this discussion, per se, but does show that writers can have little regard to rules of AoO when they write abilities.
I'm personally amused at the thought of a whip-using swashbuckler with combat reflexes parrying an attack by another creature with combat reflexes.
Cr.: attacks swash
Swash: I parry
Cr.: you used an attack roll with a whip, that provokes, I roll an AoO
Swash: I parry
Cr.: that provokes again, I roll AoO
Swash: I parry
...
It's not exactly clear, so yes, some table variation. Nothing really new there. I'm just glad it's not a biggie.
you forgot to expend Panache with all those parries in your closing witticism. With Panache max = Cha bonus on a melee combatant, expect 3-4 per day then 5-6 with Extra Panache feat later. It's also the kind of poorly worded RAW that will illicit a GM Home Rule to end the silliness of RAW.
Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) (Advanced Class Guide pg. 57): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll. If her result is greater than the attacking creature’s result, the creature’s attack automatically misses. The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made. Upon performing a successful parry and if she has at least 1 panache point, the swashbuckler can as an immediate action make an attack against the creature whose attack she parried, provided that creature is within her reach. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the number of panache points a deed costs.
All the text is important, you cannot ignore any of it. Second if you read the full text of the deed, I posted above you will see that it does not mention any type of action. Therefore, it does not override the action type. Making a melee (or ranged) attack is in fact listed as a standard action in the book. It is the first line in the chart of standard action in the section under action in combat.
yes, I could have phrased it better to avoid your pedantic reading on the onset. It's making a valid point on "how do you interpret this paragraph" and that there are two ways to go given the text.
First, why are you quoting me as saying "false premise" when the actual words I used were the much less inflammatory "faulty premise". Secondly, that it is not an AnO is not my being "pedantic" - it is fundamental to the question at hand. At the very least, you are begging the question by characterising it as such.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
All the text is important, you cannot ignore any of it.
Exactly. Your reading requires ignoring a bunch of text; mine does not.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Second if you read the full text of the deed, I posted above you will see that it does not mention any type of action. Therefore, it does not override the action type.
And Azathoth called me "pedantic"! Yes, strictly speaking Attacks of Opportunity are not "Actions" so you are technically almost correct (which, contrary the meme, is not the best kind of correct). Nonetheless, it is clearly stated in the text you just re-quoted that the Parry part of OP&R costs an AoO not a Standard Action.
(Only almost, because the Parry part requires an Immediate Action.)
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Making a melee (or ranged) attack is in fact listed as a standard action in the book.
The Attack Action is a Standard Action, but I never said it wasn't. There are umpteen ways to make a melee or ranged attack that are not the Attack Action (some of which are other Standard Actions, but many are not). This is surely not news to you?
I was in a hurry and added the comment after the second part of the post was done. I apologize for the misquote.
Still, if you read it a bit more carefully you can see my reasoning based on your short response. I did not read it as inflammatory, simply that you did not understand what I said, thus the explanation. A few posts up I said we were in discussion rather than debate.
