Unconventional Weaponry - Just for Future Proofing?

[The.Vortex]

The Human / Shirren Racial Feat Unconventional Weaponry gives access to uncommon weapons that are common for other ancestries or cultures - yet in current Starfinder no such weapons even exist!

The feat is basically a reprint from Pathfinder 2e, where a lot of racial weapons, as well as regional ones, are of uncommon rarity. Starfinder 2e has gotten rid of the uncommon rarity for those, yet the feat has not been changed. So as of right now, if you don't allow PF2e options (like organized play, which currently doesn't allow the use of those), is the feat utterly pointless? Is it just there for things to come out in the future or should it be changed to reflect the change in rarities for ancestry-specific weapons?

[NoxiousMiasma]

Yeah, that's future-proofing, considering that right now there is all of one Uncommon weapon in the whole game, and I don't actually think that one's culture-linked at all.

I do wish the feat was phrased differently, because right now there's several martial or advanced weapons that would qualify, if they were Uncommon (Skyfire sword, shobhad longrifle, and aeon rifle all look interesting. Alas, Unconventional Weaponry requires your choice to be both Uncommon and ancestry or culture locked.)

[The.Vortex]

Indeed! In PF2e it oten being used as one of the very few ways to use advanced weapons at full proficiency, and it is quite a shame that SF2e kind of made that impossible by just not having any uncommon advanced options.

[Finoan]

The.Vortex wrote:

Indeed! In PF2e it oten being used as one of the very few ways to use advanced weapons at full proficiency, and it is quite a shame that SF2e kind of made that impossible by just not having any uncommon advanced options.

I'm not understanding why this is shameful.

PF2 Core Rulebook isn't exactly packed with ancestry-specific weapons either. The content will fill out once there is more than one rulebook and one setting book in print.

[NoxiousMiasma]

Finoan wrote:

I'm not understanding why this is shameful.

PF2 Core Rulebook isn't exactly packed with ancestry-specific weapons either. The content will fill out once there is more than one rulebook and one setting book in print.

It's the second part of the requirements: the fact that it also works for uncommon cultural weapons, rather than just ancestry-trait ones, means there's even more stuff that the feat can't be used for. There are currently no options at all in SF2e that can even be selected with Unconventional Weaponry. It's a very odd inclusion in a Player Core so clearly trimmed to fit the page count

[Mangaholic13]

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

Finoan wrote:

I'm not understanding why this is shameful.

PF2 Core Rulebook isn't exactly packed with ancestry-specific weapons either. The content will fill out once there is more than one rulebook and one setting book in print.

It's the second part of the requirements: the fact that it also works for uncommon cultural weapons, rather than just ancestry-trait ones, means there's even more stuff that the feat can't be used for. There are currently no options at all in SF2e that can even be selected with Unconventional Weaponry. It's a very odd inclusion in a Player Core so clearly trimmed to fit the page count

To point out, currently, Starfinder 2nd edition only has ONE uncommon weapons (not including, of course, anything from Pathfinder):

Reality Ripper
And it is not a racial weapon.
Just give it some time.

[Christopher#2411504]

Mangaholic13 wrote:

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

Finoan wrote:

I'm not understanding why this is shameful.

PF2 Core Rulebook isn't exactly packed with ancestry-specific weapons either. The content will fill out once there is more than one rulebook and one setting book in print.

It's the second part of the requirements: the fact that it also works for uncommon cultural weapons, rather than just ancestry-trait ones, means there's even more stuff that the feat can't be used for. There are currently no options at all in SF2e that can even be selected with Unconventional Weaponry. It's a very odd inclusion in a Player Core so clearly trimmed to fit the page count

To point out, currently, Starfinder 2nd edition only has ONE uncommon weapons (not including, of course, anything from Pathfinder):

Reality Ripper
And it is not a racial weapon.
Just give it some time.

Custom Scenario, Adventure or AP content should be Uncommon by matter of principle. It simply is not designed to the same standards as proper rule books.

That stuff is overpowered, underpowered or incompletely written. I affectionally call it "AP Quality".

[The.Vortex]

Finoan wrote:

The.Vortex wrote:

Indeed! In PF2e it oten being used as one of the very few ways to use advanced weapons at full proficiency, and it is quite a shame that SF2e kind of made that impossible by just not having any uncommon advanced options.

I'm not understanding why this is shameful.

It is shameful because some of the advanced weapons would be interesting options to play around with. Aeon Rifle immediately comes to my mind for that. But trying to use them right now is a nightmare, since the feat does NOT work with them, unlike in PF2e, where there are at least a handful uncommon advanced racial weapons that the feat can be used for.

My guess is that they removed the rarity tags at some point and just forgot this feat existed / relied upon those rarities.

[Squiggit]

Finoan wrote:

I'm not understanding why this is shameful.

I mean, part of the result of this is that there are a handful of weapons in SF Player Core that are almost unusable by anyone but Fighters, which may not even be an option to begin with... which kind of just feels like a lack of attention to detail.

Like idk, shameful is kind of a strong word but also I just don't see a way to spin "we published a handful of weapons but didn't even include a way for them to be wielded normally" as some sort of positive feature.

[HammerJack]

Yes, Unconventional Weaponry, specifically, not being a way to use any Core book weapons is just weird. No Starfinder character except for the casters having any way to use most of the advanced weapons properly is a problem.

It's not a new problem, of course. The way Advanced Weapon proficiency is handled has been one of the big design flaws of Pathfinder 2E all along, but it isn't encouraging to see SF2 make the old mistake worse, instead of better.

[Finoan]

The.Vortex wrote:

My guess is that they removed the rarity tags at some point and just forgot this feat existed / relied upon those rarities.

The argument 'the game devs forgot how the rules work' is a hard argument to support. You would also need to show that it is causing a significant game balance problem.

I think the only times that I have considered that as an option was with the Clay Golem's Counteract level override and the Animist Liturgist level 9 ability. The Counteract level override puts counteracting the curse at 'literally impossible' level of difficulty when you encounter a Clay Golem as a boss enemy (when it is higher level than the party). Liturgist's ability makes Liturgist the clear must-pick subclass for Animist. That is the magnitude of balance problem that is going to make an argument of 'the game devs forgot' stick.

I'll also note that in both cases, the game devs have confirmed that they in fact did not forget how the rules work.

In this case:

Aeon Rifle wrote:

A mainstay of the Azlanti Star Empire,

Which ancestry in Player Core is from Azlanti?

Squiggit wrote:

I mean, part of the result of this is that there are a handful of weapons in SF Player Core that are almost unusable by anyone but Fighters, which may not even be an option to begin with... which kind of just feels like a lack of attention to detail.

Operatives start out at Trained in Advanced 'guns', which the Aeon Rifle would qualify as, and it scales to higher proficiencies at the same levels as their proficiency with Simple and Martial.

And Weapon Proficiency exists. It may not be as strong of an option as an Ancestral Weaponry feat, but that is the price it pays for being applicable to every weapon.

So 'almost unusable' seems like a bit of hyperbole.

[The.Vortex]

Finoan wrote:

The.Vortex wrote:

My guess is that they removed the rarity tags at some point and just forgot this feat existed / relied upon those rarities.

The argument 'the game devs forgot how the rules work' is a hard argument to support. You would also need to show that it is causing a significant game balance problem.

I never said that the devs don't know how the rules worked. I said they forgot about an interaction. That is not the same thing at all!

Finoan wrote:

In this case:

Aeon Rifle wrote:

A mainstay of the Azlanti Star Empire,

Which ancestry in Player Core is from Azlanti?

Humans!

Finoan wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I mean, part of the result of this is that there are a handful of weapons in SF Player Core that are almost unusable by anyone but Fighters, which may not even be an option to begin with... which kind of just feels like a lack of attention to detail.

Operatives start out at Trained in Advanced 'guns', which the Aeon Rifle would qualify as, and it scales to higher proficiencies at the same levels as their proficiency with Simple and Martial.

And Weapon Proficiency exists. It may not be as strong of an option as an Ancestral Weaponry feat, but that is the price it pays for being applicable to every weapon.

So 'almost unusable' seems like a bit of hyperbole.

No, it is not. The increased accuracy is one of the main features of the Operative. And unlike the fighter, they don't have a feat that allows them to use the weapon at full proficiency later on. That makes it quite a poor choice for Operatives as it stands.

Yes, Weapon Proficiency exists. But unless you are a caster (none of which currently have a way to get martial weapon proficiency, so they need to take the feat twice!), the scaling of that feat is pretty bad.

Yes, it is technically usable. But the cost of doing so is so high that it is in the "almost unusable" area of options

[HammerJack]

Having proficiency a level below what your class normally has at that level (what operatives will have at every level and what a different martial will have at most levels, with thing bands like 1-4 and 11-12 exempt) is a big enough downside that it is actually reasonable to say that there's no way to use those weapons properly. It's not actually a reasonable balance tradeoff to the quality of Advanced weapons.