Combat Trained Mounts and Handle Animal Clarification

[Ninikilim]

From the rules this is what I understand:
If I use a combat trained mount, then I get to use "Control Mount in Battle" without a roll as a move action to ride the mount around in battle.

However I have someone saying that riding a horse in battle is using the "Heel" trick and it requires a Move Action Handle Animal check if it's trained.
Not trained: DC 20 Ride check
Trained: DC 10 Animal Handling Check

I don't think that is the case, "Heel" is for having the horse follow me while not riding it.

I would like some clear rules to settle this if they exist.

[Andy Brown]

I'd have thought the actual Ride & Handle Animal skills are clear enough.

Handle Animal's 'heel' trick to get an animal to follow you, Ride's 'control mount in combat' if you're riding it

[Ninikilim]

Andy Brown wrote:

I'd have thought the actual Ride & Handle Animal skills are clear enough.

Me too, but his argument is that since you have to use Animal Handling to train the animal to have Combat Riding, then you have to make the Handle an Animal check to have it use the trick.

Combat Riding (DC 20)
An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.

Handle an Animal
This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

He said "heel" is using the reins to make it follow you.

[Belafon]

Mounted Combat was quite confusing in 1E so be prepared for multiple steps to explain the process. Here are the key quotes.

Mounted Combat page 201 wrote:

Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount.

Ride Skill page 104 wrote:

Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your wartrained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

Mounted Combat Page 202 wrote:

With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

Ride Skill Page 104 wrote:

You can guide your mount with your knees so you can use both hands in combat. Make your Ride check at the start of your turn. If you fail, you can use only one hand this round because you need to use the other to control your mount. This does not take an action.

Distilling it down: If your mount is "combat-trained" (knows the attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel tricks as detailed in the Handle Animal skill)

-A DC 10 Ride check (free action) means it will act as you want it to, including its movement and attacks. Failure means you cannot take actions and spend your round controlling it instead (though it still moves and attacks as you command).
-You also need to make a separate DC 5 Ride check to guide with knees. If you fail you have to use one hand controlling your mount for the round (but can otherwise act normally).

[Azothath]

Ninikilim wrote:

Andy Brown wrote:

I'd have thought the actual Ride & Handle Animal skills are clear enough.

Me too, but his argument is that since you have to use Animal Handling to train the animal to have Combat Riding, then you have to make the Handle an Animal check to have it use the trick.

...

He said "heel" is using the reins to make it follow you.

there's an unknown person involved and you're referencing him. I assume it's your GM. apparently somebody has been watching too many movies ... not that PF1 is all that realistic.

There are 2 skills here.
1) Handle Animal is more general and is for training/teaching an animal tricks or getting the animal to perform those tricks on command AND pushing an animal to do untrained/not learned tricks.
Once the animal knows a trick it will do it, or technically it just takes a CHA Chk DC10 (which may take 1-2 tries). Having ranks in Handle Animal just makes it easier.
Untrained: If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can’t teach, rear, or train animals. A druid or ranger with no ranks in Handle Animal can use a Charisma check to handle and push her animal companion, but she can’t teach, rear, or train other nondomestic animals. That breaks the requirement of having to have a trained only skill. Notice Handle is DC 10, teaching is DC 15, 20...

2) Ride is for using a mount, riding it about or in combat. Riding is a much more specific use. Attack (or Attack-Attack) is a trick but it also falls under Ride at DC 10. The rest of the tricks don't.
If you are on the mount there's no need for heel as you can direct the mount as needed.

Basically most PCs should put a few ranks in Ride to get it to +7 to +11 and only ride combat trained mounts. That way you won't have any problems with it in combat.

If you want to have the mount follow you about, yes, it is 'heel' and a Cha/Hndl Anml Chk. No need to hold onto a bridle as it is trained. You can try again if the first one doesn't make the check.
Your GM should give you a circumstance modifier if you are leading the horse about with its bridle. A carrot or apple in your pocket will have the horse following you about... lol... Horses have good sense and can tell when PCs dump Cha, just don't do it.

[Mysterious Stranger]

By that logic you have to make a craft roll to eat off a plate. Creating a plate requires a craft roll, so eating off the plate must require the same skill roll.

[Andy Brown]

Belafon wrote:

-A DC 10 Ride check (free action) means it will act as you want it to, including its movement and attacks. Failure means you cannot take actions and spend your round controlling it instead (though it still moves and attacks as you command).

-You also need to make a separate DC 5 Ride check to guide with knees. If you fail you have to use one hand controlling your mount for the round (but can otherwise act normally).

And once you put a couple of points into Ride, you take 10 and forget about those checks

[Belafon]

Andy Brown wrote:

Belafon wrote:

-A DC 10 Ride check (free action) means it will act as you want it to, including its movement and attacks. Failure means you cannot take actions and spend your round controlling it instead (though it still moves and attacks as you command).

-You also need to make a separate DC 5 Ride check to guide with knees. If you fail you have to use one hand controlling your mount for the round (but can otherwise act normally).

And once you put a couple of points into Ride, you take 10 and forget about those checks

CRB page 86 wrote:

Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.

Combat is pretty much the definition of "being in danger." But yeah, once you get up to a +9 Ride modifier it's a handwave.

[Melkiador]

Belafon wrote:

But yeah, once you get up to a +9 Ride modifier it's a handwave.

Taking 1

[Andy Brown]

Belafon wrote:

Andy Brown wrote:

Belafon wrote:

-A DC 10 Ride check (free action) means it will act as you want it to, including its movement and attacks. Failure means you cannot take actions and spend your round controlling it instead (though it still moves and attacks as you command).

-You also need to make a separate DC 5 Ride check to guide with knees. If you fail you have to use one hand controlling your mount for the round (but can otherwise act normally).

And once you put a couple of points into Ride, you take 10 and forget about those checks

CRB page 86 wrote:

Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.

Combat is pretty much the definition of "being in danger." But yeah, once you get up to a +9 Ride modifier it's a handwave.

Yep, that's me working from memory and getting mixed up on how I built characters