Most of my 'minionmancy' experience has been with the eidolon so all these companion, pet and familiar rules are still pretty new to me. Pardon my ignorance.
I'm stuck between these two outcomes:
#1 Minions regain their actions at the same time as the creature they serve, which is at start of that creature's turn.
#2 Minions regain their actions when they are commanded.
The specific interaction I'm checking for is if I Haste my minion on my turn. If #1 is true, it is quickened but does not immediately gain that extra action since it already regained its actions for that turn, similar to Hasting myself. If #2 is true, it does gain that extra action the next time command it since it hasn't regained its actions until then.
I'm mostly on the #1 is true side, but these two instances give me pause. Animal Companion and Pet has these respective lines implying #2:
Animal Companion - "Your animal companion has the animal and minion traits, and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it"
Pet - "It has the minion trait, meaning it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it"
They seem to both assert it works that way because the minion trait says so, but imo, the minion entry doesn't really assert the #2 scenario as strongly as they suggest. Tbf, I don't think the minion trait asserts the #1 scenario that strongly either.
Thoughts?
I initially thought "Alterations to a minion's actions" was being specific to only things that alter the default actions available (2 actions and 0 reactions) from the previous line, which also include examples of said things in slowed and quickened.
However, if I now read "Alterations" as encompassing the normal process of regaining of one's actions, then yes, that makes total sense. That's pretty clear, thanks!
Your answer is right there in the minion trait text you linked
"A minion has only 2 actions and 0 reactions per turn, though certain conditions (such as slowed or quickened) or abilities might give them additional actions or a reaction. Alterations to a minion's actions occur when they gain their actions for the round. A minion can't control other creatures."
>when they gain their actions for the round
Which is when you command them or sustain their summon spell
Except Mature Companions and Independent Familiars both have actions without being commanded:
Your animal companion has greater independence. During an encounter, even if you don’t use the Command an Animal action, your animal companion can still use 1 action that round on your turn to Stride or Strike. It can do this at any point during your turn, as long as you aren’t currently taking an action. If it does, that’s all the actions it gets that round—you can’t Command it later.
In an encounter, if you don't Command your familiar, it still gains 1 action each round. Typically, you still decide how it spends that action, but, the GM might determine that your familiar chooses its own tactics rather than performing your preferred action. This doesn't work with valet or similar abilities that require a command, if you're capable of riding your familiar, or similar situations.
Further muddying the waters on this is that one of them uses the "gains action" language while the other uses different language. But in both cases they actually can get actions without being commanded, and Haste/Slow would need to interact with that as well, so it can't strictly be "when commanded" because that may very well never happen.
But in these cases, when is it gaining the action that is being used without commanding it? This is one of those cases where it starts getting messy if you try to get very technical with the rules.
(It's also worth noting that the line about Haste/Slow changing their number of actions was added in the remaster, probably because of people arguing in legacy that minions couldn't use the extra action from haste.)
To match and parallel the behavior of Haste/Slow effects for PCs, I would have the number of actions a Minion has when commanded modified at the start of the turn after the effect is cast.
So at the start of a typical turn a Minion has 2 actions and 0 reactions available and they will use those 2 actions if commanded. Casting Haste on them during that turn won't change that. It will change their next turn when they have 3 actions available if commanded.
The RAW is a bit unclear on this, but I feel like that is the intent and spirit of the rules.
They are the opposite of unclear
Really?
A minion has only 2 actions and 0 reactions per turn, though certain conditions (such as slowed or quickened) or abilities might give them additional actions or a reaction. Alterations to a minion's actions occur when they gain their actions for the round.
They inherently have 2 actions and 0 reactions each turn. I'm pretty sure we agree on that.
It also states that alterations to a Minion's actions occur when they gain their actions.
But...
Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.
It doesn't say that it gains those actions when commanded. It says that it acts when you give it commands. It acts using actions that it arguably already has.
So the question is still valid: When does a Minion actually gain their actions?
It has been clarified that Haste/Slow impact a mature companion only when commanded (changing it to 3 or 1 instead of 2 actions gained when commanded)
Clarified where? Since if they're only using the one action, you're never Commanding them. It doesn't make much sense that it would make them immune to Quickened/Slowed.
This is something to consider though. how does a AC use an action to stride or strike if it never gains that one action to stride or strike?
We are basically saying because the key word "gains" wasn't used its not a gain. But its clearly a gain.
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that's how it works though. When you are not commanding them, they use 1 specific action regardless of their bonuses/penalties. Alterations to gained actions only happen when they actually gain actions.
But nothing actually specifies consistently when the Minion gains their actions.
To be more specific, "mature animal companions" and similar use this language:
" During an encounter, even if you don’t use the Command an Animal action, your animal companion can still use 1 action that round on your turn to Stride or Strike. "
Yup. It can use one action. That it gained at some unspecified time.
While Companions normally has "Your animal companion has the animal and minion traits, and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it; "
This is so close. It almost sounds like it is gaining the actions when you command it.
But it doesn't say that. It says that the Minion gains the actions at some unspecified point during your turn if you use spending an action commanding them.
It might gain those actions when commanded, or it might gain them at the start of your turn. It isn't specified. It only says "it gains 2 actions during your turn".
Slow/Haste Errata clarifies that:
"Apply these conditions and any other effects that alter a minion’s number of actions when the minion gains its actions, using 2 actions and 0 reactions as the minion’s starting number."
And now we are back to fully not specifying when those actions are gained.
Regarding the action given by mature animal companion and independent familiar when not commanded, are those essentially the same ability (minus the stride/strike limit) but for different companion types? Or is the wording distinct enough (mature says “use 1 action” and independent says “gain 1 action”) that they’re supposed to work differently?
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An animal companion goes during the PC's turn.
If the PC commands it, it logically gains the actions when it is commanded. If it's more advanced and can take one action without a command, it logically gains it when the player says 'My companion does <action>.'
That's all it needs to say. I mean, it's simple. It doesn't need to be some hyper-specific math formula. It's ok to just keep things simple and have the game flow.
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Regarding when companions gain actions, is this line not pretty unambiguous?
and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it
Seems like it answers the OP's question pretty clearly.
It has been clarified that Haste/Slow impact a mature companion only when commanded (changing it to 3 or 1 instead of 2 actions gained when commanded)Clarified where? Since if they're only using the one action, you're never Commanding them. It doesn't make much sense that it would make them immune to Quickened/Slowed.
There's no immunity, it just doesn't interact with haste/slowed imo because it's not the minion taking its actions normally but a special aspect of the feat.
Regarding when companions gain actions, is this line not pretty unambiguous?
and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command itSeems like it answers the OP's question pretty clearly.
Not for a mature companion/independent familiar. They have actions without being commanded, and in fact RAW can act independently if the GM decides they do (ie: they can do what they want without the PC telling them anything). They literally can act without any commands being given at all.
So they must get an action at some point during the turn to do that.
There's no immunity, it just doesn't interact with haste/slowed imo because it's not the minion taking its actions normally but a special aspect of the feat.
Paizo specifically added wording in the remaster about haste/slow and companions because people in premaster tried to argue that companions didn't interact with haste/slow due to the wording "it can take 2 actions when commanded."
So we're now STILL trying to argue that companions don't interact with haste/slow? Like, it doesn't say that haste/slow don't work on companions. People are just leaning very heavily on a word choice and arguing that it means companions work differently then everything else in the system when it comes to actions.
The far more likely explanation here is that they just gain 1 action if you don't command them and thus interact with haste/slow normally. That is how familiars are worded. I highly doubt the companion word choice is actually a deliberate attempt to make them immune to haste/slow, but rather just someone using different verbiage when they intended the same thing (see: Champion Blade Ally changes that didn't actually change anything vs Battle Harbinger).
If RAW produces a nonsensical outcome like "animal companions are immune to slow unless you Command them, and thus get more actions while Slowed 2 if you don't command them then if you do", then RAW is probably wrong. The devs have told us before not to try to be this strictly literal.
that's how it works though. When you are not commanding them, they use 1 specific action regardless of their bonuses/penalties. Alterations to gained actions only happen when they actually gain actions.It has been clarified that Haste/Slow impact a mature companion only when commanded (changing it to 3 or 1 instead of 2 actions gained when commanded)Clarified where? Since if they're only using the one action, you're never Commanding them. It doesn't make much sense that it would make them immune to Quickened/Slowed.
That's not actually what Familiar says: it says "if you don't Command your familiar, it still gains 1 action each round". Gains an action is explict.
Animal companion uses different wording for some reason. That's either deliberate, or it's "two different writers wrote this but they intend the same thing", which happens all the time in PF2.
To be more specific, "mature animal companions" and similar use this language:
" During an encounter, even if you don’t use the Command an Animal action, your animal companion can still use 1 action that round on your turn to Stride or Strike. "
Where is that action coming from? When does it gain that action?
It doesn't make much sense that they just have an action that they don't gain since nothing else in the game works that way, and nothing suggests its actually intended for Animal Companions (but not Familiars) to be immune to Slowed... yet this is what your interpretation does. They can be Slowed 3 and somehow still use 1 action because they never "gained an action" to lose to Slowed.
Also, since they never gain actions, they can effectively be Stunned forever until commanded. They never "gain" an action independently and thus never lose it to Stunned.
While Companions normally has "Your animal companion has the animal and minion traits, and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it; "
Slow/Haste Errata clarifies that:
"Apply these conditions and any other effects that alter a minion’s number of actions when the minion gains its actions, using 2 actions and 0 reactions as the minion’s starting number."
That errata was put in because people were arguing premaster that Companions were immune to Slowed/Quickened because it said "They can take 2 actions when commanded."
aka: it was put in because people were reading it too literally and thus coming up with a situation that wasn't supposed to exist if you just take what it says at face value. So we probably shouldn't turn around and use that clarification to do it again.
In short, putting all 3 rules together:
Animal companions only gain actions when commanded.
Alterations to amount of actions occur when the animal companion gains actions.
Mature companions, when not commanded, while they aren't actually gaining any actions, can use 1 action specifically for a stride or strike.
But you still have to gain an action to use it. That's in the action rules. You don't just "have an action without gaining actions". That produces silly outcomes like "you can't lose the action to Stunned so Stunned never drops off" and "your companion has 1 action while Slowed 2 unless you command it, in which case it has 0 actions."
Neither of those outcomes make any sense. But it works fine if you just go with "it gains 1 action if you don't command it" because that's how the action rules work for everything else.
When RAW interacts with an edge case and produces an outcome that doesn't make any sense, the result Paizo wants us to follow is generally "use common sense", not "do something that doesn't make sense until we show up to errata it."
One angle is what the words say and I don't think thats so clear cut that we can be definitive on the No extra action.
Another angle is why are we even looking at this as if it was an abuse of haste in the first place?
Haste could have given any PC an extra action without any question, but no, this player decided it was going to the animal companion. Instead of just getting the extra action each round were talking about ways in which we don't think the action is actually given?
I don't think there is some balance issue were trying to curb. Its not a case of too good to be true to give the action.
Isn't it just a restrictive read for the sake of being restrictive?
So we're now STILL trying to argue that companions don't interact with haste/slow?
I don't think anyone has made that argument, no.
So we're now STILL trying to argue that companions don't interact with haste/slow?I don't think anyone has made that argument, no.
I disagree:
It has been clarified that Haste/Slow impact a mature companion only when commanded (changing it to 3 or 1 instead of 2 actions gained when commanded)
That's literally the argument being made here: if you don't command it, it has one action and isn't impacted by Haste/Slow. So somehow your Slowed 2 companion has 1 action, unless you command it, in which case it ends up with 0 actions.
That is the argument being made and it hinges on the idea that a mature companion has 1 action if not commanded while never gaining actions.
Regarding when companions gain actions, is this line not pretty unambiguous?
and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command itSeems like it answers the OP's question pretty clearly.
No, it doesn't. It says 'if you use the Command an Animal action', not 'when you use the Command an Animal action'.
"It gains 2 actions during your turn".
When? At what point during your turn does it gain those actions? You are claiming that it gains those actions at the time that it is given commands. There is nothing to say that this is wrong. But there is also nothing in that quote that says that that is the correct point in the turn either.
"if you use the Command an Animal action to command it".
That is a conditional. That is not a designation of when the actions are gained. The companion only gains those 2 actions if it is commanded. But this does not specify when the actions are gained.
So we're now STILL trying to argue that companions don't interact with haste/slow?I don't think anyone has made that argument, no.I disagree:
It has been clarified that Haste/Slow impact a mature companion only when commanded (changing it to 3 or 1 instead of 2 actions gained when commanded)That's literally the argument being made here: if you don't command it, it has one action and isn't impacted by Haste/Slow. So somehow your Slowed 2 companion has 1 action, unless you command it, in which case it ends up with 0 actions.
That is the argument being made and it hinges on the idea that a mature companion has 1 action if not commanded while never gaining actions.
The problem is that the clarification isn't clear regarding independent minions.
Can a minion be quickened or slowed?
Yes. This can be a bit unclear because those conditions apply “at the start of your turn” and a minion can’t typically act until you use an action. Apply these conditions and any other effects that alter a minion’s number of actions when the minion gains its actions, using 2 actions and 0 reactions as the minion’s starting number.
This only goes over the case of commanded minions.
Under the assumption that minions always gain 2 actions and 0 reactions at the start of the controller's turn, then the independent abilities only allow them to use one of those actions that they have (they still gain two actions at some point rather than gaining one action at the point when they are not commanded). The haste and slow effects would modify the number of actions that they have, but it wouldn't let them use more of the actions than their independent abilities allow.
So a slowed 2 minion would have zero actions available whether they were commanded or not. And a quickened 1 minion would have three actions available, but could still only use one of them independently without commands.
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Honestly the only thing that I find astonishing is that so many people are still surprised that the Minion rules are this unclear and are trying to argue that their individual interpretations are somehow the only valid interpretations.
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Regarding when companions gain actions, is this line not pretty unambiguous?
and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command itSeems like it answers the OP's question pretty clearly.No, it doesn't. It says 'if you use the Command an Animal action', not 'when you use the Command an Animal action'.
"It gains 2 actions during your turn".
When? At what point during your turn does it gain those actions? You are claiming that it gains those actions at the time that it is given commands. There is nothing to say that this is wrong. But there is also nothing in that quote that says that that is the correct point in the turn either.
"if you use the Command an Animal action to command it".
That is a conditional. That is not a designation of when the actions are gained. The companion only gains those 2 actions if it is commanded. But this does not specify when the actions are gained.
This argument is so goofy I don't even know how to parse it.
To try to understand, your contention is that the companion gains actions at some unspecified point of time not when you command them but contingent on if you commanded them but also available for use immediately after you command them?
How does that even play out in practice?
I'd rather just go with what the book says tbh.
How does that even play out in practice?
It plays out exactly the way that the Minion trait describes it.
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"the companion gains actions at some unspecified point of time not when you command them"
Yes.
A minion has only 2 actions and 0 reactions per turn,
They gain 2 actions and 0 reactions at some unspecified point during the turn. I propose giving those actions at the start of the controlling character's turn.
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"but contingent on if you commanded them"
Sort of. The only reason I concede this is because of the rule quoted for Companions stating exactly that. That "it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it". I also note that this rule is specifically for Companions such as an animal companion, and is not duplicated into the familiar rules or the Minion rules.
It certainly isn't the only time where mechanical effects do some time traveling in relation to the narrative description. See also Disrupting Actions.
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"but also available for use immediately after you command them?"
Yes. That is how using actions works generally. You use actions that you already have.
Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.
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Calling my argument 'so goofy' is nothing more than ad hominiem. That is insulting.
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I mean sorry, but that's how retroactively saying they gained actions at the start of the turn that they didn't actually have at the start of the turn because you need to command them for them to have regained actions at the start of their turn reads to me.
It's just a very complicated way to reach the goal you want.
That is the argument being made and it hinges on the idea that a mature companion has 1 action if not commanded while never gaining actions.It's not the first, nor the last time that "someone" does a specific action (effect) without having an "action" (resource).
I'm not sure what's hard to parse here.
Take Four Winds as an example:
Mimicking the anemoi—monarchs of the four winds—you propel four creatures. Target up to four willing creatures within 30 feet of you. Each of those creatures can Stride up to half its Speed. If it has a fly Speed, it can instead Fly up to half its fly Speed.Do you require that the four creatures have an Action, out of their turn, to Stride?
Where did this Stride come from if they cannot "spend an action" themselves?
Obviously it came from the effect of the Four Winds.
Why do you think that this is any different?
The specific effect of a Mature Companion gives them "do a Stride or a Strike"
It doesn't require for them to have actions (resources) to perform that (although it has other requirements).
Four Winds is two actions. The person using it spends the actions, and then it causes something to happen. The "something" is that other people get to move. They don't have to spend an action to do it because they're not the one doing it: they're having an effect placed on them by Four Winds and then doing what that effect tells them.
That is completely different than a mature animal companion being able to independently take an action entirely on its own, which is literally what it can do. It has to get an action at some point in order to spend an action. No external force is acting on it telling it to do this, since no one commands it to take that action.
These are not even remotely comparable. Stride/Strike are in fact actions. The fact that it's limited in which actions it can take doesn't mean that they're not spending an action to do it.
And again: under your interpretation, a mature companion that is Slowed 2 has MORE actions if you don't command it than it does if you do. That makes no sense whatsoever.
And again: under your interpretation, a mature companion that is Slowed 2 has MORE actions if you don't command it than it does if you do. That makes no sense whatsoever.
I mean if you really want mature companions to be slightly worse in this very specific scenario that's fine I guess it's such a minor point I don't really see any value in holding onto it you can have it.
Mature animal companion states that the mature animal companion uses one of their actions to stride or strike. If they have no actions to use then they cannot stride/strike.
Clearly that's not entirely true, since if you don't command the companion they don't regain actions normally. Taking this strictly the mature benefit wouldn't do anything at all since they'd never have the action to spend.
Either it gains its actions only when you use Command an Animal at which point Mature Animal Companion needs to be erratad
Why would it need to be erratad? Mature Companion works pretty clearly, except maybe wrt Tridus' question about their interactions with Slowed, but that's pretty separate from this other issue.
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I would follow : Gain actions when commanded or Gain actions when the master decides not to command the companion (for those who can act without command).
It feels like the most simple way to do it.
i Would agree with this
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I would follow : Gain actions when commanded or Gain actions when the master decides not to command the companion (for those who can act without command).
It feels like the most simple way to do it.
Yeah that's clear and consistent wording. Perfect.