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I think this part of the Ready action might apply:
"If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it's not your turn."
I say "might" because I'm not sure if not having a MAP is the same as MAP -0.
Not sure if RAW but I wouldn't apply MAP because you're now spending 2 actions with the risk of a trigger not occurring. A lot of 2 strike features work one way or the other; 2 strikes taking MAP during for 1 action or 2 strikes taking MAP after for 2 actions.
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It is a bit of a strange case.
The purpose of Hunted Shot is to improve the action usage for making two attacks without providing any benefit to Multiple Attack Penalty. Like NorrKnekten mentioned, there are other abilities such as Double Slice that do the opposite - they provide benefits to Multiple Attack Penalty, but with no improvements to action usage.
Hunted Shot isn't trying to override the rules for Ready and Ready isn't trying to override the rules for Hunted Shot. So we don't need to try to determine which of the two is more specific than the other.
Ready does override the general rules for not tracking your MAP when it is not your turn.
It is very clear to me that the first Strike of Hunted Shot would be made at the same level of MAP you had when you used Ready. So if your one action that you used on your turn was Stride, then it would be at full bonus. If the one action you used was Escape, then it would be at MAP stage 1 and either -5 or -4 with an Agile weapon or whatever it calculates out to be for a Flurry Ranger.
It is the second Strike of Hunted Shot that is a bit debatable. There is a case to be made that MAP would not progress because it is not your turn. RAW indicates that your MAP stage for all attacks made during a Readied action would be fixed to what you had when you used Ready. So in the case of Escape followed by Ready of Hunted Shot, both of the Strikes of Hunted Shot would be made at MAP stage 1.
I don't think that is the intent. The override in Ready is trying to avoid shenanigans of MAP manipulation due to the rule of MAP not applying when it is not your turn. Similarly, the intent of Hunted Shot is to provide action economy improvements, but no MAP benefits. I would conclude that the intent of the interaction is that your MAP penalty for your first Readied Hunted Shot Strike would be at the same stage as when you used Ready, and MAP would progress to the next stage for your second Hunted Shot Strike. So with the example of a Precision Ranger using a Shortbow and actions of Escape, then Ready Hunted Shot, the two shots would be made at -5 and -10. Which is "as normal" compared to using Escape followed by using Hunted Shot directly during your turn.
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Not sure if RAW but I wouldn't apply MAP because you're now spending 2 actions with the risk of a trigger not occurring.
Now consider the case where the first action is Strike and then Ready Hunted Shot. With a trigger that is pretty much guaranteed to happen such as 'that enemy makes an attack with its weapon'. Remember, this is Hunted Shot we are discussing - the one using ranged weapons like a shortbow. The enemies can't avoid triggering the reaction or avoid being attacked by being out of melee range.
What you are proposing is that the Strike during your turn has zero MAP because it is your first attack. Then both the Strikes of Hunted Shot also have zero MAP because it is not your turn and you aren't applying MAP.
So the ranger is now making three Strikes for three actions and a reaction and having no MAP on all three of them. Three zero MAP Strikes per turn.
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Well, due to the Ready rules, you would start with your original MAP of -5, so you'd have 1 strike with no MAP and then 2 with MAP -5 in that example.
I'm thinking maybe with Ready, you keep your MAP but it doesn't build further due to it being a reaction...
Curious what happens if you have 2 reactions, ready Hunted Shot, take a Reactive Strike first (assuming you have it) and then your Ready trigger occurs after....
Well, due to the Ready rules, you would start with your original MAP of -5, so you'd have 1 strike with no MAP and then 2 with MAP -5 in that example.
Ah, so the case where MAP doesn't progress - all attacks are made at the MAP stage when you used Ready.
That is more reasonable as far as balance goes. It effectively turns things like Twin Takedown into a slightly nerf'd version of Double Slice. The optimal usage of Double Slice if you want to make three attacks per round is to use it after your first attack. One attack at zero MAP and two attacks at stage 1 are better than two attacks at zero MAP and one attack at stage 2. Only slightly better though.
Without progressing MAP during a Readied action, things like Hunted Shot would be at about that same level. You are spending two actions and a reaction to make two attacks at the same stage of MAP.
I still don't think it is the intent of the rule. But it also isn't game breaking unbalanced. You are effectively using Ready shenanigans to convert the action economy improving feats such as Hunted Shot, Twin Takedown, and Flurry of Blows into the MAP improving feats such as Double Slice.
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Not sure if RAW but I wouldn't apply MAP because you're now spending 2 actions with the risk of a trigger not occurring.Now consider the case where the first action is Strike and then Ready Hunted Shot. With a trigger that is pretty much guaranteed to happen such as 'that enemy makes an attack with its weapon'. Remember, this is Hunted Shot we are discussing - the one using ranged weapons like a shortbow. The enemies can't avoid triggering the reaction or avoid being attacked by being out of melee range.
What you are proposing is that the Strike during your turn has zero MAP because it is your first attack. Then both the Strikes of Hunted Shot also have zero MAP because it is not your turn and you aren't applying MAP.
So the ranger is now making three Strikes for three actions and a reaction and having no MAP on all three of them. Three zero MAP Strikes per turn.
I think you're summarizing what you believe the other poster's position or hope to be.
I would say that it absolutely does not work as described above though.
In the above scenario, the first attack (during your turn) is made a 0 map. Then you ready a Hunted Shot. Using "MAP as normal" means when you execute your hunted shot attack, you already count as having made one attack and so your first attack of Hunted Shot would be at -5 (or maybe -4 if you somehow had an agile attack) and the second Hunted Shot attack would be at -10 (or maybe -8 if somehow agile).
Even though there is maybe some vagueness around MAP progressing outside your turn, I would absolutely say its not intended to somehow use the action compressing attack feats outside your turn to make attacks at a lower MAP. That clearly falls into too good to be true territory.
Curious what happens if you have 2 reactions, ready Hunted Shot, take a Reactive Strike first (assuming you have it) and then your Ready trigger occurs after....
So Fighter with Tactical Reflexes picking up Twin Takedown through Ranger Archetype. Scenario: Strike followed by Ready Twin Takedown; during enemy's turn they provoke Reactive Strike and then later trigger your Readied Twin Takedown.
Reactive Strike does not have an override for applying or interacting with MAP. So the Reactive Strike would be made at zero MAP.
The Readied Twin Takedown would have MAP stage 1 for the first Strike because that is what you had when you used Ready. Table ruling would decide if the second Strike was also at stage 1 or if it progresses to stage 2.
I think you're summarizing what you believe the other poster's position or hope to be.Not sure if RAW but I wouldn't apply MAP because you're now spending 2 actions with the risk of a trigger not occurring.Now consider the case where the first action is Strike and then Ready Hunted Shot. With a trigger that is pretty much guaranteed to happen such as 'that enemy makes an attack with its weapon'. Remember, this is Hunted Shot we are discussing - the one using ranged weapons like a shortbow. The enemies can't avoid triggering the reaction or avoid being attacked by being out of melee range.
What you are proposing is that the Strike during your turn has zero MAP because it is your first attack. Then both the Strikes of Hunted Shot also have zero MAP because it is not your turn and you aren't applying MAP.
So the ranger is now making three Strikes for three actions and a reaction and having no MAP on all three of them. Three zero MAP Strikes per turn.
I was interpreting the statement that I quoted at its literal face value.
John R clarified what he intended to say and I accepted the clarification.
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In the above scenario, the first attack (during your turn) is made a 0 map. Then you ready a Hunted Shot. Using "MAP as normal" means when you execute your hunted shot attack, you already count as having made one attack and so your first attack of Hunted Shot would be at -5 (or maybe -4 if you somehow had an agile attack) and the second Hunted Shot attack would be at -10 (or maybe -8 if somehow agile).
Even though there is maybe some vagueness around MAP progressing outside your turn, I would absolutely say its not intended to somehow use the action compressing attack feats outside your turn to make attacks at a lower MAP. That clearly falls into too good to be true territory.
Oh shoot, you're right. I completely already forgot about the very last line of Ready. Yes, MAP is still going to apply normally to the Hunted Shot. Still, having a Reactive Strike before a 2nd reaction Hunted Shot is weird. I still feel like I'm forgetting some other detail here. Not trying to give definitive answers either, just trying to help work through the problem.
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It's as almost as if the 2nd strike in Hunted Shot is in a quantum state, both a Readied action susceptible to MAP but existing out of turn and immune to MAP.
You could view it that way, but it's a case of "too good to be true" IMO.
I don't have the exact wording because it's a sidebar explanation in the core rule book, but there really is an excerpt that basically says if something seems to be good to be true (or too bad to be true) you're probably not interpreting it correctly.
Finding a "secret method" of avoiding increasing MAP on your second attack of Hunted Shot to me would qualify as too good to be true.
At that point why would your turn be anything other than move (or other single action activity you like), shoot once, and then ready Hunted Shot.
Making 1 attack at 0 MAP and two at -5 only is a great deal. Too good of one. So it doesn't pass the sniff check as a valid interpretation.
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Not trying to give definitive answers either, just trying to help work through the problem.
Agreed. I'm pretty good at interpreting rules logically, but I am not perfect at it. Working through the various thoughts and scenarios is very useful.
I'm sure wheatleymr is going to be thrilled to see the detailed use case examples.
I don't have the exact wording because it's a sidebar explanation in the core rule book, but there really is an excerpt that basically says if something seems to be good to be true (or too bad to be true) you're probably not interpreting it correctly.
It does exist in AoN: Ambiguous Rules.
The location is a bit wonky. The sidebar itself doesn't have its own link and it ended up in the section on Perception and Detection. That is just an AoN bug though.
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn't work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
And that is the foundational rule for my slogan that Strict RAW is a troll ruling.
Finding a "secret method" of avoiding increasing MAP on your second attack of Hunted Shot to me would qualify as too good to be true.
At that point why would your turn be anything other than move (or other single action activity you like), shoot once, and then ready Hunted Shot.
Making 1 attack at 0 MAP and two at -5 only is a great deal. Too good of one. So it doesn't pass the sniff check as a valid interpretation.
I actually don't think it is that bad because of the high action cost of Ready itself.
If there existed a ranged version of Double Slice - allowing you to spend two actions to make two Strikes and delay increasing MAP - then you could do the same thing. One attack at 0 MAP and two at -5. It just wouldn't also cost you your reaction.
It is still a bit of a power boost to take one feat and have it do the work of two feats because of Ready shenanigans. But I don't think it is causing significant balance problems.
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I don't think it's too good to be true because you're essentially just turning Twin Takedown into a Double Slice that has a chance of not occurring.
Not really, it's pretty trivial to make a ready action condition that is almost guaranteed to succeed unless the GM metagames things.
And yeah, you're example highlights why it's a problem.
You're trying to use a Ready action to basically turn Hunted Shot into a combination of Hunted Shot and Double Shot.
Edit: A ranged version of double slice exist, it's double shot, it's just not available to rangers.
Double Edit: It also imposes an additional -2 to both attacks and requires attacking separate targets, which I feel is relevant here.
When you compare you're theoretical "no additional MAP" Readied Hunted Shot to Double Shot, it's clearly better, which doesn't pass sniff check.
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Yeah, forgot about Double Shot and its -2 penalty. You got a good point there. If Ready triggers were more GM dependent, I would still say it's balanced but yeah....effectively gaining 2 feats for 1 (the "bonus" one being higher level) and avoiding all penalties does lean toward too good.
MAP applying to both Strikes is certainly the intent. Hunted Shot technically avoiding it since only the subordinate Strikes have the attack trait is definitely a troll ruling, but an errata would be nice.
"If applicable, the readied action takes and contributes to your multiple attack penalty as though you performed it on your turn. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it's not your turn."