So one of my favourite parts of Pathfinder is the crafting system, even after 10 years of playing I find a new caveat of niche of crafting rules and such.
The other day however I fell over a peculiarity in the Manuals and Tomes Wondrous Items, definitely some of the more famous magic items out there.
See the thing is that their costs are not as every other Wondrous Item; they don't cost half of commercial price to craft, but only a few thousand less, I suspect because of Wish as a requirement.
However, in the crafting rules it states that you can get certain discounts on the price, most remarkably 30% discount by making it required to have the correct alignment or class.
Something tells me that you shouldn't be able to do that on manuals and tomes, but at the same time I haven't been able to find any rules that specifically stating it isn't allowed.
Do anyone have rules denying or confirming that it is not against the rules?
The cost of stat boost manuals includes a 25,000g diamond material component, which essentially can not be avoided or discounted: If you get a crafting cost discount somehow, it won't apply to this portion of the cost.
The 30% discount for user restrictions is generally viewed as impacting the sale price only: The crafting cost is still the same as it would be without the restriction. Generally speaking, the restriction makes such an item harder to sell on the open market (since so many potential customers would be excluded from using it) but is typically advantageous for personal crafting as it limits it potential usage if stolen by someone.
Finally, the 'custom item' crafting rules are really just guidelines for the GM to use: At the end of the day, your GM has to decide if such an item is possible and what it would cost to craft.
The cost of stat boost manuals includes a 25,000g diamond material component, which essentially can not be avoided or discounted: If you get a crafting cost discount somehow, it won't apply to this portion of the cost.
Absolutely.
No discounts on expensive crafting materials. They are what they are.
The cost of stat boost manuals includes a 25,000g diamond material component, which essentially can not be avoided or discounted: If you get a crafting cost discount somehow, it won't apply to this portion of the cost.
The 30% discount for user restrictions is generally viewed as impacting the sale price only: The crafting cost is still the same as it would be without the restriction. Generally speaking, the restriction makes such an item harder to sell on the open market (since so many potential customers would be excluded from using it) but is typically advantageous for personal crafting as it limits it potential usage if stolen by someone.
Finally, the 'custom item' crafting rules are really just guidelines for the GM to use: At the end of the day, your GM has to decide if such an item is possible and what it would cost to craft.
This is also what I'm thinking and hence why I am asking the question. But do you have a link or a quote from the rules to support it?
...But do you have a link or a quote from the rules to support it?
Magic Items Creation wrote:
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
Note that under Wondrous Items, you have this line:
Creating Wondrous Items wrote:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require.
This might seem like the diamond isn't required, but the wording is meant to be applied to magic items that have spell requirement to craft, but do not effectively cast or produce an effect like the spell. It's (apparently) been judged that using a Tome or Book is effectively getting a wish (thought it might take longer than just casting one).
Whether you agree or disagree with the above, the one thing that really matters, is the rule that you price and value magic items based on their actual effects (in game) and that you also try to stick close to the prices for already existing items. Since we can clearly see that Tomes (as well as similar items like a ring of three wishes or a luck blade) have a price, and that by reducing it by 25,000 gp per effective wish (ie. the bonus it grants), and then dividing that amount by half (the cost of making an item), and adding back in the material cost, it should be self-apparent that it's intended.
CraftySunuwaBeach wrote:
However, in the crafting rules it states that you can get certain discounts on the price, most remarkably 30% discount by making it required to have the correct alignment or class.
Like Taja the Barbarian said, crafting item prices are guidelines. The restrictions discount isn't meant to allow circumventing it. Especially when it's already well-established that items are priced based on what they do and how good they are in-game (and that does make some more or less value in different games).
Space Saver:
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If your whole party is dwarves, making magic items that only work for dwarves is not an actual limitation (even if an example can be thought up, "Well, I have a monkey familiar that might want to use it. Or we might have a hireling!" A person putting a restriction on an item that doesn't really restrict them from using it shouldn't get a discount (if it's a commission or something, for an NPC, then sure, but not if it's basically for the party).
This may seem a bit meta-gamey to just say that, but it's pretty much what the player (ostensibly) would be trying to do. A magic item that only functions when the wearer is submerged is a legitimate restriction... but not if that item is a ring of swimming for instance. Same with an item that only works in sunlight, that's a reasonable and discountable restriction, but not if it's an item that provides the equivalent of protective penumbra (basically protects you from sunlight), your vampire crafter shouldn't really be getting a discount on it by adding that limitation. It's not a real limitation or hinderance to the item's effective use.
Take it the opposite way. A player could claim that they're creating a magic item that can't harm humans or dwarves (say it blasts out a fireball). That's a restriction, (assuming a reasonable portion of their enemies are humans or dwarves and would be unaffected by it) but if you realize the party is mostly humans and dwarves, they've really just made a fireball that they can set off without worrying about injuring themselves.
A poison cloud that only effects one specific creature, like goblins, or even locusts, would legitimately be useless again any other creature... but if you then market and sell it as a pesticide or vermin removal, the fact that it doesn't poison the user or their family or their chickens when set off over their crops is actually a really good thing.
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A manual of bodily health or tome of clear thought that only works for [the person with the alignment and race of the person it was created for] is not a restriction. Your Lawful Good Dwarf just needs to stay Lawful Good and be a dwarf for about a week. Now, if that same tome granted its bonus but only as long as the user remained that alignment and in dwarf-form, that might be a restriction (it comes back when they return to their 'normal' form). Then if they're polymorphed or something (still rare in a lot of cases) or take another form, it doesn't apply. I am not saying do that, but I would definitely give a discount in that case from the viewpoint of it being an actual restriction.
A 27,500 gp Manual of bodily health costs slightly less than a scroll of Wish (28,825) and requires 3 days to make against the 4 days of the scroll (the material component cost isn't part of the Base price of the item).
For the question about the discounts, Sean K Reynolds gave an official reply when he was the guy tasked with replying to the players' questions. Essentially, the discounts in the CRB (not those from feats, traits, and archetypes) affect the buy/sell price, not the production cost, unless they are an actual drawback.
CRB wrote:
Other Considerations: Once you have a cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.
Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold piece value following the item’s slot) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item.
Price and Cost aren't interchangeable.
Price is the purchase cost of an item, and half of that is the selling price of it.
Cost is the production price.
So an Item that Requires Skill to Use has a discount of 10% on its crafting cost (and sell value, as it is derived from the crafting cost), an Item that Requires a Specific Class or Alignment to Use has a reduction in its market price but no reduction in its crafting cost.
A better definition of the terms and a more uniform use would have been helpful, but it is relatively clear how it is meant to work.
I don't allow alignment or class requirements discounts for magic items. I think the game works less well when allowed. When allowed, everyone wants to use it for price discounts and security (cause they will make it work only for themselves or party members). My opinion though; I don't have any official rules to point to.
When building an item, you calculate the cost to create it as if it were in the hands of an optimal user. Otherwise it's basically cheating. Observe:
Ezren makes a headband of vast intelligence +6. Cost to create: 18,000 gp
vs.
Ezren makes a headband of vast intelligence +6, but it only works for male humans (discount!) named Ezren (discount!) who are at least "old" age (discount) and were born in Absalom (discount!). Cost to create: ridiculously cheap, even though it works exactly like a standard headband +6.
Sean K Reyonlds wrote:
Tilquinith wrote:
So then why bother to include these discounts? When would you ever use them, other than perhaps to screw over PC's by including treasure they not only might not be able to use but also can't sell for as much money?
That's pretty much the reason--and it's not me being a jerk, it's (insert evil race) being jerks.
Discounts require GM approval.
The mistake here is thinking crafting takes place in a vacuum or that RAW on autopilot is going to be just fine.
The GM has to consider the appropriateness of the discount, thematically and stylistically, along with the total, the process, and the Game Balance.
Sean had a good practical sense as to where the rule result should be but not on getting or explaining how to get from A to B. It is just a game of Let's Pretend with lots of books publishers sell you.
Normally, when buying "from the shelf", I allow my players to purchase only standard and relatively straightforward magic items. Those who produce them for the market will go for stuff that sells, not for the items with very specific enchantments and discounts. It is possible to order what you want, but it will take time.
Then there are a few quirky items that some adventurers sold to the store. Those are rolled randomly, added for story reasons, or on the GM's whim.
Back in the days of 3.0, the female drow cleric/bard was searching for a +6 cloak of charisma, with a bit of bad luck, until she found a bargain: a merchant selling pink tutù of alluring charisma +6 usable only by bards with at least 5 ranks in Perform (dance). The merchant was very happy to sell it at a large discount as it had sat in his inventory for years.
That was done for giggles, but it shows why an item could be brought for a discounted price.
The player was even sporting enough to make a drawing of his character with the tutù.
