Juggler Thaumaturge - what’s the ruling?

[Gothic_Artificer]

Are you able to use Implements of Power during a Juggle, or no? It says you count as a hand free, if juggling less than your maximum. But that doesn’t explain if it works for this sake, specifically.

[Azothath]

your phrasing/terminology isn't clear. Usually this involves Occultist class with implement schools and a selected implement(object) Whenever an occultist casts a spell, he must have the corresponding implement in his possession and present the implement to the target or toward the area of effect. otherwise make a Conc chk.
Implement Mastery (item mastery) feat?

It is well known that a caster can have 2 weapons in hand, as a free action hold the weapons in one hand and cast with the other, then regrip the weapons as a free action into both hands. The key is not using the weapons (and filled hand) during the casting action (which means the creature doesn't threaten and is not armed during casting). Cestus is the notable exception.

I have the feeling this is Third Party material.

[I grok do u]

I think this wrong forum, sounds like 2nd Ed with thaumaturge and implements. PF2 Juggle vs PF1
Bard archetype

[Azothath]

PF2 thaumaturge and a whole 'nuther kaboodle of jargon.

[Finoan]

Gothic_Artificer wrote:

Are you able to use Implements of Power during a Juggle, or no? It says you count as a hand free, if juggling less than your maximum. But that doesn’t explain if it works for this sake, specifically.

For the PF2 Juggle feat and wielding Thaumaturge Implements:

It is a bit of a problem because the feat only lists wielding Weapons.

Juggle wrote:

You can wield weapons you are Juggling (but not shields or other items) as long as they can be wielded in one hand.

So by strict RAW that wouldn't include most Thaumaturge Implements. Certain weapons as a Weapon Implement would still qualify.

Looking at the list of Thaumaturge Implements, I don't think most of them need to be Wielded though. Holding them (even temporarily while juggling them) should qualify.

[NorrKnekten]

If it is 2e. My first instinct is to say.. Why would you? When Thaumaturge can swap between implements for free as long as they hold the implement with one hand.

For the question at hand though. Juggle does say that items you juggle cannot be wielded outside of one handed weapons. so anything that specifically mentions wielding an implement is out fo the question appart from the weapon implement.

Otherwise it seems up to GM how they adjudicate Juggle, Does juggled items count as Held or are they stuck in a state between Held and Dropped?

[Maya Coleman]

Although this question involves both 2E and 1E, there's a higher percentage of 2E being discussed, so the thread stays where it is!

[Finoan]

As a 2e question, it makes sense. Both Thaumaturge and Juggle are meaningful.

As a 1e question, Thaumaturge only shows up in a couple places (Deity: Haagenti and Crook and Flail of Kings) and both times as lore only - not mechanics.

My only thought is that this is more of a rules question than an advice request, but that is a minor point.

[Trip.H]

Here's the text about the Thaum's free swap, and it's also worth noting that this is a L5 feature that is only added by Second Implement:

Quote:

While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action. For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, a weapon in the other, and a chalice implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction.

The only prereq is that you are holding one of your implements. If so, then you may free action swap that implement for any other implement.

If you are holding any implement, this feature allows you to qualify as holding any implement to then initiate their respective action.

Juggling items seems to not cause any problems with this feature.

.

But Implement's Empowerment does have a RaW problem.

Quote:

Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.

So to gain this bonus damage, you need to

1. may only be holding only a 1H weapon, implements, or esoterica.
2. must beholding 1 implement.

.

The way it's written RaW does cause issues with juggling items.

However, I would claim that the RaI of Thaum was written with the presumption of a PC only being capable of having 2 hands, and I would expect most GMs to allow Implement's Empowerment to work so long as a free hand was available.