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I'm not understanding the balance intention with this monk stance, it appears that you can just "jump over" any creature and get a free hit with no attack roll, with no defense available to the target. What am I missing here?
The point of the stance is as follows:
1) It gives the following weapons the Monk trait: Talwar, Dandpatta, Scimitar, and zulfikar.
2) It grants you access to those weapons.
3) When you tumble through or leap above an enemy WHILE WEILDING ONE OF THOSE WEAPONS, you deal 1d6 slashing damage to that enemy, with the damage going up by a d6 with each Striking Rune you have above the standard Striking Rune.
I'm not sure I get what you are having trouble grasping.
What I am seeing that is not accurate is this:
it appears that you can just "jump over" any creature
No, you still have to roll for Tumble Through or somehow manage to Leap high enough to clear the creature (the default height of Leap is not high enough for most creatures - you have to pay additional feats to get your Leap height high enough).
and get a free hit with no attack roll, with no defense available to the target.
It is damage with no defense listed (the defense is the defense against Tumble Through). But it is not full weapon damage. It is just the listed damage. 1d6 initially. No strength bonus. No precision bonus (if your Monk somehow has that). It would be increased by circumstance or status bonuses that apply to all damage that you deal, such as from Courageous Anthem.
As for balance, it compares approximately to Crushing Grab - at least at low and mid levels. Crushing Grab does probably 2-5 points of damage when you Grapple. Waterfowl Stance does damage as a rider on Tumble Through instead of Grapple. And it does 1d6 or 2d6 damage (3.5 damage or 7 damage) for much of the levels of play.
Looks a bit odd of a stance because it has a trigger which would require you to take damage from a melee strike from a creature within your reach, on your own turn ( i.e. you probably triggered a successful reactive strike, unless the DM is willing to let you hit yourself to meet the requirement which seems certainly not RAI).
Heh. I had noticed the strange trigger. I hadn't worked through all the problems that it would cause.
I think Ready would be useful here...
RAW aside, I would probably change the feat to have the Trigger be a Requirement similar to Arcane Cascade - where you only have to meet the Requirement to start the stance, not stay in it. The Requirement would be "You were damaged by a melee Strike by an enemy creature after the end of your last turn, and the creature is currently within your Melee reach."
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I agree that it's odd to bypass their AC like that, but it doesn't feel like an entirely free hit to me. The monk still needs to beat their enemy's Reflex save with Acrobatics to Tumble Through or Critically Succeed at DC 30 check with Athletics to High Jump, so the enemy does have some good defence against it. I'm not terribly familiar with the jumping rules, but I don't think running up a 2-3 foot obstacle would really help because the monk still has to travel 3-4 feet vertically (to account for the enemy's typical height of 6 feet) and at least 10 feet horizontally (to actually jump over them and not on them), which would still require the DC 30 Critical Success.
In terms of damage, it's also more of a half hit than a full hit. When a monk can first get the feat at 2nd level, its 1d6 results in an average of 3.5 damage, whereas a regular unarmed strike will do 1d6 plus the monk's Strength or Dexterity (usually 4 at this point) for a total of 7.5, which is over double. At 20th level, when the monk probably has a major striking weapon or handwraps, Waterfowl Stance increases to 3d6 or 10.5, but the regular unarmed strike increases to 4d6 plus 7 for Strength/Dexterity plus 6 for greater weapon specialization, for a total of 4d6+13 or 27, which is about 2.5 times the damage of Waterfowl Stance.
You're right that Waterfowl Stance has its upsides though. With it, the monk can target a tanky enemy's Reflex DC instead of their AC, add some automatic damage to their movements, squeeze in another attack without worrying about the Multiple Attack Penalty, and more. I just think that these upsides are reasonably balanced by the low damage and other restrictions.
The requirement is crazy. First, it makes no sense. But even if you houserule it to allow switching to the Stance when you had taken damage in the current encounter (which seems like the intent, unless it's supposed to be a reaction) then you have a big issue: What do you do when you haven't taken damage? As you can't switch to the Stance you don't have the proficiency to use your weapons, so you have to default to another Stance or just plain punches.
Overall, the automatic hit in case of Leap is the least of this Stance issues.
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Another thing to consider is that these movement options provoke reactions. Tumble Through doesn't protect you from reactions due to movement even if you succeed at the check. Not without further feat investment. I don't think Leap even has any feats that will make it not provoke.
Another thing to consider is that these movement options provoke reactions. Tumble Through doesn't protect you from reactions due to movement even if you succeed at the check. Not without further feat investment. I don't think Leap even has any feats that will make it not provoke.
I don't know of any available to Monk, but an Aloof Firmament Magus who gained the Waterfowl Stance via an archetype would be able to leap without provoking reactions while in Arcane Cascade (And gain a damage bonus to compensate for being required to keep a hand free). Still, that's three archetype feats (Monk Dedication, Basic Kata for Monastic Weaponry to qualify for Waterfowl Stance, then Advanced Kata for Waterfowl Stance), two of which are kind of dead feats for a Magus
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Another thing to consider is that these movement options provoke reactions. Tumble Through doesn't protect you from reactions due to movement even if you succeed at the check. Not without further feat investment. I don't think Leap even has any feats that will make it not provoke.I don't know of any available to Monk, but an Aloof Firmament Magus who gained the Waterfowl Stance via an archetype would be able to leap without provoking reactions while in Arcane Cascade (And gain a damage bonus to compensate for being required to keep a hand free). Still, that's three archetype feats (Monk Dedication, Basic Kata for Monastic Weaponry to qualify for Waterfowl Stance, then Advanced Kata for Waterfowl Stance), two of which are kind of dead feats for a Magus
Yeah, Squark, you forgot that Arcane Cascade IS a stance. And without Fused Style, you can't be in more than a single stance at a given time.
Really not sure why everyone is acting like Waterfowl Stance is busted. You have SUCCESSFULLY tumble through or leap over for it to work, it does low damage, and it provokes reactions.
Another thing to consider is that these movement options provoke reactions. Tumble Through doesn't protect you from reactions due to movement even if you succeed at the check. Not without further feat investment. I don't think Leap even has any feats that will make it not provoke.I don't know of any available to Monk, but an Aloof Firmament Magus who gained the Waterfowl Stance via an archetype would be able to leap without provoking reactions while in Arcane Cascade
It may not work in this case due to a technicality, but it is something that allows Leap - and Jump and Fly - without provoking reactions. I'll have to keep that in mind.