How to make my players wishes for her rogue work reasonably?

[DeriusA]

Hi :)

I hope you can help me with the following task:

One of my players plays a rogue (level 10 already). During combat she likes playing her rogue like a true acrobat, jumping and climbing all over the place. Sometimes I am struggling to figure out logical rules or skill checks for what she wants to do.

For example: Last time we played she was standing on a bridge and a wyvern flew next to the bridge. She wanted to jump on that wyvern (step 1) and then attack that wyvern from its back (step 2). (How) does that work? (I know that is a rules question, but since I am also asking for general advice I figured the post would better fit here - feel free to move it, if I am wrong). Jumping through the spaces adjacent to creatures works through acrobatics, that I know. But isn't that jump also kind of an attack because she wants to land on that wyvern? It kinda seems like a grapple but that doesn't quite fit. Would you maybe just use a "generic combat maneuver" for that? How could the wyvern try to lose her if she makes the jump? So many questions. Are there rules for stuff like that I didnt find yet?

I am aware of the vexing devil archetype.

Which other (if any) rules or feats, archetypes, whatever (...) could help me and her to let her rogue act like she wants? Jumping on that wyvern was just one example. In general she likes fighting with crazy acrobatic maneuvers. And since she reached level 10 already I feel like stuff like that should be in the scope of said rogue. That is why I am trying to figure out how to make it work rules wise.

Thanks for your help in advance!

(I flagged the thread I posted in the wrong sub-forum)

[I grok do u]

My general advice would be to focus on whether the actions have a mechanical advantage or if they are just flavorful descriptions.
Jumping onto and riding a wyvern for a round or two is mechanical, and would require the appropriate acrobatics jump check as well as the grapple check. Or let it be an attack, but without the grapple, then the wyvern can easily shake her off.
If she is wall jumping behind an enemy to help get in flanking position - acrobatics, probably as if moving through threatened spaces. It is OKAY for you as the GM to make up the checks and DCs you feel are necessary on a case-by-case basis.
However, if she is just describing her cartwheeling down the corridor followed by a final backflip before stabbing the enemy in the face - that's just the rogue being awesome, no check required.

You already mentioned Vexing dodger, there is also the the acrobat and roof runner archetypes. You may also want to look at the Courser swashbuckler.

The Spring attack line of feats can be good for this play type. Branch pounce may also be good.

[Azothath]

as a GM to sort various Actions that don't fit described actions -
1) what skill(s) fit the action? look to set a DC appropriate to the task and determining what type of action it is (move, standard, etc).
2) is there a Feat that describes the action? You don't want to "devalue" feats and some actions need those feats or special abilities. It is just a Game after all.
3) sometimes things are a series of sequential checks to break the task apart into manageable bits or just not doable.
etc (hard to really cover all the possibilities)

normally a PC does a quick mount or dismount of a ridable creature(mount). Not all creatures qualify as mounts (aka, you can't "ride" a larger humanoid). Ride skill is used here.

Landing next to a creature can be an Acrobatics check (w or w/o running start). The landing spot needs to be stable (not a creature, usually...). Flying or air walk is required to land in "the air".

To interrupt another creature's action a "ready action" is usually required and that means it was set up in advance. In the sequential order of actions and initiative, one guy can't just interrupt some other guy or act out of order without a good reason.

It is just a Game with some rules. You can't do whatever you want whenever as there is an order to things to create a sense of flow and fairness to everyone's turn.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The skills used in combat will be the same skills used out of combat. If the character is climbing the skill used is climbing, if they are jumping the skill used is acrobatics. That being said not everything the player wants to try should be allowed. If what the character is attempting to do is covered by a class feature or feat, they do not have the character should not be able to do it.

Trying to jump on the wyvern and climb it is a class ability of the vexing dodger so unless the rogue has that archetype, they should not be allowed to do it. If this is something you want a character to be able to do the GM could make a custom feat or rogue talent that would grant the ability.

Another thing to make sure is that you are applying all the negative aspects of what the character is trying to do. Moving through a threatened square usually provokes an AoO. He could use acrobatics to avoid that but that would require a separate acrobatics check. By climbing on the wyvern, he was considered moving through his opponent's square, which increases the DC of the acrobatics check. Looking up the Wyvern the DC for the acrobatics check would be 28 (5+ CMD of 23), or the rogue provokes an AoO. The wyvern is in combat so probably counts as a severely unstable surface, that raises the DC of the acrobatics check to 38. When climbing the character moves at ¼ speed and loses DEX to AC, considering this is rouge that probably means he is losing a lot of AC when he gets hit with the AoO. If the character has the vexing dodger archetype, they do not have to worry about the AoO he does lose AC, but that will probably be offset by penalty to attack the wyvern suffers because of limb climber.

[Mysterious Stranger]

In all honesty without the vexing dodger archetype any character trying this is going to hit with an AoO and be denied their DEX bonus to AC for that AoO. Climbing on a character would be considered moving through his opponent's square. The DC of the acrobatics check to pull this off is going to be impossible for the character to make at this level. The DC would be the wyverns 5 + wyverns CMD (23) plus an additional 10 for the wyvern moving in combat being a very unstable surface. I doubt the rogue can pull off a DC 38 acrobatics check. This is in addition to the acrobatics check to jump on the wyvern and the climb check to stay on.

[Azothath]

→ Climb skill
climb is part of movement and it seems people are confusing a location, surface, or object on a surface with a creature.
It takes some text in a class ability or feat to open the skill up.

Part of the weirdness/oversimplification of the game is instataneous acceleration where a creature seems to stop/start at the end/start of its turn. Clearly while flying at 60 the creature is still moving at 60 while time stops and we go onto the next creature's turn, otherwise it would fall from the sky.

[Carrauntoohil]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

That being said not everything the player wants to try should be allowed.

RAW, this is 100%

In practicality, I've been surprised and disappointed that some stuff requires a feat in the past.

You'd need to be a really, really experienced GM to know what is and isn't covered off the top of your head. There are [b]thousands/b] of those bad-boys.

[Azothath]

the "you are devaluing my (potential) feat" complaint always nibbles at a GM's bum. It is hard to know all the crazy stuff out there. As I said, you have to try to bin the action into an appropriate skill and then assign a reasonable DC.
That said, some stuff is just impossible (aka you can't Ready an action in case comets fall from the sky, or make a jump check to the moon).

The decision of "does this feat mean the action is so special that you just can't do it without the feat" is in the GMs hands. I know some people feel it's automatic and I disagree as sometimes it is just a way to do something easier.