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So over the past few months I've been tinkering away on a Sorcerer Unchained. Ideas for this have been simmering in the back of my head for a few years now, and I decided to finally commit it to paper and address every bloodline. The sorcerer is my favorite Pathfinder 1E class, and I've long had a laundry list of nitpicks ranging from small to fairly significant. This is my attempt to implement a comprehensive fix to them. I'd be curious to hear any feedback people have.
There are lots of changes here, some buffs and some nerfs. The sorcerer in general has a faster spell progression with more spells known, more support for various playstyles, but a lot of the more powerful options have been toned down or no longer stack or in a few cases removed. Almost every bloodline has been rebalanced to try and bring them all into line with each other and the bloodline mutations. I was very much threading a needle on these to get them strong enough without being overpowering, and with 60 bloodlines I'm certain there are some I've overshot and undershot on. And I know there are a few abilities that would be potentially problematic on other classes if grabbed with Eldritch Heritage; I'm still thinking about a good solution, and if anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.
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You clearly spent a lot of time on this, but these feel like straight upgrades to an already popular and powerful class. This kind of power creep isn't in the spirit of "Unchained". The rogue got buffs in unchained because the rogue was widely believed to be behind so many other classes in what it was supposed to do. The sorcerer had no such problems.
This also throws off the surprisingly good balance the sorcerer has with wizard and arcanist. You'd need to buff them like this too to keep pace and then you are just in an ever escalating circle of buffing.
I definitely understand that criticism, and I have been grappling with it myself throughout this process.
The biggest and most obvious factor here is the new spells levels coming a level earlier. This is an unambiguous and significant buff, I fully acknowledge that. But at the same time I've always felt this has been a major problem with the class balance especially at lower levels. A 3rd level Sorcerer is just a sad creature compared with a Wizard. And although it's not quite as severe at higher levels it's still true at every odd-numbered level. The Wizard just feels like he's always a level ahead of the Sorcerer, and this is the one place where I disagree with there being a good balance between the three main arcane casting classes. The Wizard is just plain ahead of the other two at odd-numbered levels.
As far as bloodlines go, a lot of these abilities are still weaker than bloodline mutations, and are still liable to be traded out. But I do agree that by bringing 1st level powers into the ballpark of things like blood havoc or a familiar it really does give the Sorcerer a huge plethora of powerful abilities to choose from. Even with blood havoc being nerfed, I still feel it's stronger than most of these 1st level powers. And for what it's worth, blood havoc got nerfed in my unchained version (it no longer stacks with bloodline arcanas that boost damage) and I would still say it's one of the strongest 1st level powers.
Edit: you know what? I'll slightly reduce the number of spell slots. It won't be an enormous change, but it will be a noteworthy compensatory nerf.
I have to agree with Melkiador on this. You are fixing a problem that does not really exist. The niche the sorcerer fills is the ability to spam out spells especially combat spells. Sorcerer is for the player who wants to play a blaster. Lot of bloodlines encourage this by having a bloodline arcana that enhances damage.
You are fixing a problem that does not really exist
I'd disagree; the disparity between Wizard and Sorcerer (and Arcanist, for that matter) at odd-numbered levels is quite noticeable. While this is less impactful at high levels, at the lower odd-numbered levels the Sorcerer and Arcanist are just not the equal of the Wizard. The power increase of going from 1st->2nd, 2nd->3rd, and 3rd->4th is pretty enormous.
Moreover, Sorcerer spontaneous casting is purely hypothetical when you first get a new spell level. You get one spell known. Being able to spontaneously pick which spell you can cast hardly matters when you only have one spell known. Not every Sorcerer build is spamming metamagic, and you generally don't want to use lower-level spells with higher-level slots. So Sorcerers really end up feeling like they're just behind the curve.
As I mentioned, it gets less problematic at higher levels. The gap between 6th->7th level spells isn't nearly as big as the lower levels. But that also means getting that new spell level a level earlier isn't as big of a power spike either.
Sorcerer is for the player who wants to play a blaster
Sorcerer is far more than that. Yes, there are bloodlines that boost blasting, but they are outnumbered ten to one by bloodlines that do other things. There are cool bloodlines that have abilities focused on polymorph, gish, bad touch, support, divination, crafting, disease, curses, mind-affecting shenanigans, and just about whatever else you can imagine under the sun.
But most of them suck. There are only a handful of non-blasting bloodlines that are really competitive. There are a few that shine, like Arcane and Astral, but the vast majority have powers that are significantly weaker than what you get from bloodline mutations. Even if you aren't building a blaster, +1 damage per die on blast spells you use occasionally is vastly more useful than 95% of the 1st level powers.
This is one of the biggest parts of my sorcerer unchained, bringing those other bloodlines up to speed so they are offer meaningful support for other kinds of playstyles. And that wasn't just done through buffing, Blood Havoc got nerfed and no longer stacks with bloodline arcanas. You can still create a really good blaster with this, there's no shortage of great support. But other stuff is good now, too.
I would counter that the disparity between a 1st level wizard and a 1st level sorcerer is equally noticeable, but in the sorcerers favor. The extra spell at that level is very significant as is the extra cantrip. At that level an extra spell and cantrip is a significant advantage. The sorcerer also proficiency in simple weapons so can start with a long spear. That means that anyone approaching him provokes an AoO. At this level his lower BAB is not as significant as it will be at higher levels.
Bloodline spells often give sorcerers spells from other spell lists. They are also a CHA based class with UMD as a class skill which gives them the ability to use magic items the wizard cannot. Wizards may be better at making magic items but sorcerers are better at actually using them. How many wizards can use a wand of cure light wounds, or a druid scroll?
You are focusing only on the negative parts of the sorcerer and ignoring the positive parts.
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Having played a sorcerer, I can certainly agree that they suck at 3rd level and generally feel very one-dimensional for a while because of always doing the same thing. Lack of skills is a problem, so 4 points is certainly right.
It's all very well claiming that a sorcerer gets UMD, but in practice he doesn't because his 2 skill points are sunk into KA, Spellcraft, Perception and Intimidate. And there's no point in touching UMD unless a) it's reliable, b) you have some items and c) you have nothing better to do. At low levels you have neither item nor skill, and at high level...you're a full caster. You don't need no items.
Whilst they are claimed to have more spells per day than a wizard, it's actually about equal if the wizard specialises. But more to the point, a wizard can scribe scrolls. Given a bit of time (and it's not much time - scrolls are quick, easy and fairly cheap, especially if you don't need to pump the CL) a wizard can loads of spells, plus enough for contingency uses. And the wizard gets enough skill points and feats to make other toys.
As for the spell levels, I'd just give the bloodline spell (and ONLY the bloodline spell) at 3rd/5th/etc. It's always seemed off that it should come in after the others. This makes odd levels meaningful but not overpowered, while emphasising the bloodline flavour.
As for the spell levels, I'd just give the bloodline spell (and ONLY the bloodline spell) at 3rd/5th/etc. It's always seemed off that it should come in after the others. This makes odd levels meaningful but not overpowered, while emphasising the bloodline flavour.
I could maybe support that. Some bloodlines are going to be more favorable for this though. Waiting for level 4 isn't super easy, but I don't really think it's that bad either though.
But comparing straight spells per day with a wizard isn't the whole picture. The wizard has to prepare spells ahead of time and it's very likely that spells will be "wasted" every adventuring day, because they got prepared, but were never needed. The sorcerer has a big advantage in being able to use up its spell slots, even if that's just spamming some blasting spells.
Meanwhile, the arcanist has fewer spells per day than either wizard or sorcerer, but with their casting style and the quick study exploit, they can almost always use up and make good use of every spell slot. It's the height of versatility.
I would counter that the disparity between a 1st level wizard and a 1st level sorcerer is equally noticeable, but in the sorcerers favor. The extra spell at that level is very significant as is the extra cantrip.
Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat, giving them the ability to make half-priced scrolls. A Wizard's extra spellcasting power is in the form of scrolls he's prepared ahead of time. At character creation a Wizard should have 2-3 more scrolls than an equivalent Sorcerer, and will be making more as soon as you get some money. Scrolls are a pretty huge part of the spellcasting power of low-level Wizards and Sorcerers, and the Wizard has a pretty decisive advantage here.
And that says nothing of the advantages of prepared casting; with only 2 spells known, a Sorcerer doesn't really get much spontaneity. If you decide to pick up an out-of-combat utility spell, that leaves you one combat spell. Wizards have the flexibility to actually use those utility spells. You can learn and prepare Charm Person while still having 3 different combat spells.
So no, I strongly disagree with the notion that Sorcerer outclasses the Wizard at 1st level. The only place the Sorcerer really dominates is in blasting, and that's true from 1st-20th. But outside of that one aspect, the Wizard is as good or better than a Sorcerer.
The sorcerer also proficiency in simple weapons so can start with a long spear. That means that anyone approaching him provokes an AoO.
It's an advantage, but not a big one. It's highly unlikely you'll hit anything unless you're Strength invested, and doesn't help against ranged attacks or ambushes which are the big PC-killers at 1st level play.
Bloodline spells often give sorcerers spells from other spell lists.
Yes, every bloodline gives unique benefits. The Sorcerer class doesn't get very many archetypes, and in practice their bloodlines are their equivalent of archetypes. In modern Pathfinder, archetypes that give access to a limited number of off-list spells are fairly common and most classes have at least a few. There are very few bloodlines that give off-list spells, and if anything the Ring of Spell Knowledge is the main way Sorcerers get off-list spells (and if you scroll down far enough in the Sorcerer Unchained doc, that item actually got a modest nerf)
They are also a CHA based class with UMD as a class skill which gives them the ability to use magic items the wizard cannot. Wizards may be better at making magic items but sorcerers are better at actually using them. How many wizards can use a wand of cure light wounds, or a druid scroll?
UMD is a good skill, but it's not some uber-skill. The chances of a successful UMD activation at 1st level are pretty bad even with 20 Cha and class skill.
As Mudfoot mentions, Sorcerers have better skills to be investing in. Even non-class-skill Diplomacy will come up a lot more often. Meanwhile, Wizards get a boat-load of skill points. Their class skill list is bad, but their skill situation is more quantity over quality. They may not be great at anything outside of Spellcraft and Knowledge, but they can invest so broadly that they're reasonably good at a lot of skills.
You are focusing only on the negative parts of the sorcerer and ignoring the positive parts.
That's untrue; there are also nerfs in the sorcerer unchained, with many of the more powerful options toned down. However, the vast majority of bloodlines are on the weaker side, so there are far more buffs than there are nerfs. But that's just it, the goal is to bring those weaker options up to speed so there are cool alternatives.
As for the spell levels, I'd just give the bloodline spell (and ONLY the bloodline spell) at 3rd/5th/etc. It's always seemed off that it should come in after the others. This makes odd levels meaningful but not overpowered, while emphasising the bloodline flavour.
I agree with you on emphasizing bloodline flavor, and it's one of the big reasons why I wanted bloodline spells obtained immediately. However, I don't think this is really appropriate for every bloodline, as many have more thematic spells that have more limited application. Ensuring that you get one selected spell to complement them means they're still a very significant part of your kit, but doesn't completely lock you in. And it also emphasizes the fundamental spontaneity of the Sorcerer by having two options to choose between, which I also feel is an important aspect.
But comparing straight spells per day with a wizard isn't the whole picture. The wizard has to prepare spells ahead of time and it's very likely that spells will be "wasted" every adventuring day, because they got prepared, but were never needed. The sorcerer has a big advantage in being able to use up its spell slots, even if that's just spamming some blasting spells.
This is one of the downsides of prepared casting, but there are lots of upsides and ways to alleviate this. The Pearl of Power is a very cost-effective item that lets you recall a spell you've already spent for the day. A lot of good spells are very flexible and even if they're not the perfect spell for the job will still do just fine. And Wizards can also leave slots open to prepare them later in the day when they have more information of what they will likely need. I'm actually playing a 5th level Wizard in a play-by-post campaign and I am a huge fan of the Fast Study arcane discovery.
But for every long adventuring day where the Wizard becomes depleted and their options more threadbare, there will be short adventuring days where they only scratch the surface of their powers. Yes, on those long days where the Wizard runs out of options the Sorcerer has an edge because they never lose access to any spell they know until they're down to their last slot. But on short days where you go in fresh, the Wizard has their full arsenal and doesn't need to worry too much.
I don't see the need to buff the Arcanist to keep up with a buffed Sorcerer, to be honest. The Arcanist is frankly an excessively potent class design and one that tends to crowd out the Sorcerer's niche for no good reason.
While I agree the Arcanist is a very powerful class, the Blood Arcanist archetype is the main culprit for it infringing on the Sorcerer's niche. The Arcanist has a very limited number of spell slots per day, and has to guzzle through its reservoir if it wants even a handful more spells prepared per day, and I feel people don't give these limitations enough credit for keeping the Arcanist in check. Again, it's still one of the best classes in the game, but so are Wizard and Sorcerer.
Runestone of Power pricing will affect a lot of classes, but there is an argument to be had that the problem is that Pearls of Power are too cheap rather than Runestones of Power being too strong
There's a fair argument over whether Runestones of Power are overpriced or Pearls of Power are underpriced, and the right balance point may very well be somewhere in the middle. But there's no question that the Pearl is the objectively superior item. The runestone is doing nothing for you until you've expended your final spell slot of its spell level, and even then you need the item in hand at the time of casting which can be a pretty big imposition in combat situations. The Pearl can be used before combat, and allows a Wizard to recover a spell that's already spent and thus is very useful even when you still have slots remaining.
So whatever the "right" pricing is, runestones shouldn't be a single copper piece more than pearls. If you were to Pathfinder 1.5 this, I would say just eliminate the runestone entirely and let pearls be usable by spontaneous casters so they're both using the same item.
As for the bloodlines, the Sage's new Sage Spellcaster bloodline power is excessively powerful. You have essentially turned the Sage into a superior Arcanist as far as his spellcasting is concerned. The existing Sage bloodline can already be used to obtain a bloodline familiar instead of the 1st-level power which is a good enough trade for him, not to mention it is possible to use a bloodline mutation.
One of the key limitations of the Sage is the need to have to spellbook or scroll in hand in order to cast, which creates a lot of in-combat action economy issues even with the 4th level power to help alleviate that. But for out-of-combat utility (which is probably where this ability is at its strongest) that's not a big limitation. I wanted it to have its own unique 1st level power rather than swapping for an identical familiar to the default arcane bloodline. Perhaps instead of Intelligence modifier per day uses, it's 1/day with a few extra uses at higher levels? Should keep it powerful, but limited.
Bookworm sacrifices a lot, losing both the bloodline arcana and bloodline spells. I don't think it's too powerful given what it's sacrificing; this is a far cry from Quick Study. But I can definitely see the criticism that it is stepping on the niches of other classes.
The Divine bloodline is also excessive, giving a long list of potent benefits. The Sorcerer gains access to an entire domain's worth of spells, gains all the domain powers of that domain, gains a familiar, gains a HD 18 outsider of his choosing as a minion, and gains divine spellcasting, which means our Sorcerer can now equip full plate and a tower shield without worrying about spell failure, so long as he is indifferent to making attack rolls where the lack of proficiency would actually prove a hindrance. It provides far too many powerful benefits.
The domain spells replace the bloodline spells, so it is the same number of bonus spells as usual. While I do agree that this gives an absolutely huge selection of lists to pick from, I don't think there are any that are unreasonable. There are certainly some good off-list spells a Sorcerer can grab, but probably the best is the Healing domain which is giving almost the same bloodline spell list as Unicorn bloodline.
I agree that the 16th level power is quite strong, it is replicating the effects of the True Name arcane discovery which is a really strong power that is held in check by explicit threat of roleplay consequences for abusing it. I think with already having a familiar at 4th level, it's probably best to do something else here and I'll brainstorm an idea.
I think you are overrating the power of armored spellcasters. Psychic bloodline already allows this as well, and very few Psychic bloodline Sorcerers actually avail themselves of this because of all the drawbacks. The carrying capacity issue is a very real limitation as tower shield + fullplate is nearly 100 lbs of gear, so you'd need at least 14 Strength (probably 15 since you'd have other gear too) just to be in medium encumbrance. That's a pretty high Strength investment for a Sorcerer! Your movement speed would be reduced. You're effectively locked out of any spell with an attack due due to huge non-proficiency penalties, and the gear itself is really expensive.
Glove of storing makes the spellbook easily accessible. It’s very important to arcanists with quick study. 10,000g isnt super cheap but you are still likely to have it by mid levels if it is useful to you. And craft wondrous item is very common if you have crafting in your game, making it available much earlier.
Glove of storing makes the spellbook easily accessible. It’s very important to arcanists with quick study. 10,000g isnt super cheap but you are still likely to have it by mid levels if it is useful to you. And craft wondrous item is very common if you have crafting in your game, making it available much earlier.
That helps, but your spells will probably be split across multiple spellbooks. The Sage is likely to get most of its spellbooks as treasure, and has neither the ability nor need to transcribe them into a book of their own.
As a magical item comparison, the Mnemonic Vestment are a 5,000 gp item that gives this effect of being able to cast a spell using written sources 1/day.
I'm honestly a bit dubious of this sort of ability in general. It pushes the Sorcerer easily out of the domain of spellcasters restricted to their spells known, and the Mnemonic Vestment is a bit too good of an item in my view. I'd also sooner give him the ability to add spells to his spells known as part of a spell preparation ritual than grant him the ability to on-the-fly cast any spell he has on hand, but all in all this too strong, especially for a 1st-level bloodline power.
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The Dreamspun bloodline does this too. I feel like you are trying to have Sorcerers gain the ability to just cast any spell from their spell list and just be able to cast whatever they would like each day in the same vein Wizard are, but while being spontaneous spellcasters on top of that. Design like this risks making the Wizard class largely pointless.
Yes, I gave this kind of ability to two out of the 60 bloodlines plus the archetype, so it is something that was handed out very sparingly. But I do agree it's a powerful ability that stands out due to directly competing with the Wizard. I know what you mean about Mnemonic Vestments; there's a reason that Ring of Spell Knowledge is one of the things that got nerfed in my Sorcerer Unchained.
So, here's my thoughts having considered your feedback:
1. Nerf Dreamspun; it's now only one spell, and it comes with a cost for using the ability.
2. Nerf Sage; the ability is now 1/day at 1st level and improves to 3/day at 18th.
3. Bookworm is limited to 1 prepared spell per day at each spell level. After they cast it, they can't prepare another.
There are domains that give you animal companions, domains that give you paragon surge always matching your race, domains that give you access to Miracle along with a lot of other good spells, even something like taking Good with the Archon subdomain has a good bit of value. There are plenty of good options when you obtain an entire domain's worth of of spells and powers.
But there aren't domains that do all of these things. You have to pick one with all its pros and cons.
Animal Domain is a pretty meh pick; yes, you eventually get an Animal Companion, but it's delayed until 10th level since the bloodline doesn't get the full domain powers until then, and the spell list is pretty poor. There are some domains that give great spells, but their powers are mediocre.
Point me towards a singular domain that is clearly out of line, because I'm not seeing it.
The AC bonuses are very high even before perhaps using a domain that gives you Magic Vestment to raise the AC bonuses further, and yes you would be losing out on spells that make attack rolls, but you don't really need those as a spellcaster.
I'm definitely seeing it as a good option, but not an overpowered one. You're paying for that AC, getting around the encumbrance issue isn't free, and stuff like Magic Vestments requires you to further invest your options to double down on it instead of getting other things.
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I'm a big believer that Class-Comparisons really, Really, depend on the DM and the DM style.
And often whether the DM lets the PCs rest after every combat. Or, you know, NOT rest until after 101+ Combats!
But also if the DM usually throws 1 monster against the PCs that is like, +3 CR above the EPL, or throws 10 monsters against the PCs that are like, -3 CR below the EPL.
And how much treasure the DM generally gives (or withholds). And how many splat-books the DM allows or not, and what the Point Buy for Ability Scores is.
Depending on the DM, a Sorcerer could be considerably stronger or considerably weaker than a Wizard.
....Of course, it also really, Really depends on how well the Player can design and build the Class, too.
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In my games, whether I'm DMing or when it's my friend's turn to run a campaign, Yes, a Full-Progression Sorcerer and Oracle would be finally closer to equal to the standard Wizard and Cleric. For us, yeah, the Sorcerer is a step weaker than the Wizard. .... But that is an observation based far more on our gaming style than it is with the Class design. The number of tweaks and edits and alterations to RAW that we have added (and subtracted) over the decades, and our own routine ways of playing the game as a whole, make a Wizard better than a Sorcerer. But we also know that YMMV as different groups play different ways.
The wizard is generally considered to be the most powerful class in the game. That kind of makes comparing the wizard vs the sorcerer a bad idea. What happens when you compare the sorcerer vs other classes? Is the sorcerer less powerful than a fighter or rogue? If it compares well to druid or bard, there is no need for an upgrade. Instead of coming up with an unchained sorcerer to make it equal to the wizard, a better approach would be an unchained wizard that weakens the wizard. They did that with the summoner.
If you don't believe me look up the cost of a Page of Spell Knowledge and add up the cost, subtract the appropriate pearl of power cost, then add 1000/Lvl for the skill points.
The number of spells known is very close to what a human sorcerer would have. This is less about giving the sorcerer more spells, and more about bringing non-human sorcerers up to parity with their human counterpats. A 13th level human sorcerer with their favored class bonus would have 38 spells known, while the Sorcerer Unchained would have 41. The unchained is only slightly ahead.
But secondly, you aren't accounting for the fact that the unchained sorcerer's spell slot progression was reduced to compensate for spells known being accelerated. In fact, unchained is nerfed at 20th level when compared to a human sorcerer, both of which get the same number of spells known (60 in both cases) but with unchained losing a spell slot at each level.
So let's actually run that math and see if the gold equivalency is really out of whack like you say it is. Let's go with 12th level as a mid-range number to look at. Unchained has one extra 5th level spell and two extra 6th level spells. That's 97k gp in pages of spell knowledge. You're getting 3 more skill ranks per level (two more from baseline, one from your FCB being freed up) so that's 18k gp. That brings the total to 115k gp in benefits. But you also lost one spell slot at 1st-5th level. If we value them by Runestones of power, that's 120k gp in detriments.
So by your own methodology, unchained is actually offering a pretty balanced tradeoff here. Fewer spell slots, but your spells known progression is faster. I would personally say that's a positive trade (spells known tends to be more of a limitation than spell slots for a sorcerer) but if we value them by runestone of power and page of spell knowledge they are an equivalent trade even if we also account for the skill points. Now, I would say runestone and page are both exceedingly overpriced, but I would say they're both overpriced by about the same margin so for a relative comparison like we're doing here it works.
The wizard is generally considered to be the most powerful class in the game. That kind of makes comparing the wizard vs the sorcerer a bad idea.
The wizard and sorcerer directly compete for the same niche. There are marked differences in their playstyle, but they are both fundamentally spellcasters casting off the same spell list and a lot of the time will be casting exactly the same spells.
Second, much of the internal balance of the bloodlines isn't against the wizard but against other sorcerer bloodlines and mutations. And that balance did have some nerfs; even though the majority of bloodlines got significant buffs, the strongest bloodlines actually took small nerfs.
Instead of coming up with an unchained sorcerer to make it equal to the wizard, a better approach would be an unchained wizard that weakens the wizard. They did that with the summoner.
Much like the summoner, the main problem with the wizard is the spell list. It's not the class features that make the wizard the best class in the game, but rather having full prepared casting off the best spell list. If you nerf the wizard, you'd do it by targeting the spells. And that would nerf the sorcerer and arcanist in lock-step.
If you're going to do it, I think Bookworm should also pay a price in spells known like the Crossblooded Sorcerer does and that it should lose 1 spell slot per level perhaps
He does, he trades bloodline spells as one of the features he loses for the power. The value of that will vary based on the bloodline, but most have pretty decent spells after the buff that I gave the weaker ones. Many bloodlines are kinda obligated to pick up their bloodline spells as their features directly synergize with them (Draconic's features are all about Form of the Dragon)
As for the divine bloodline, if we're going to make a divine Sorcerer (which I still find inappropriate - this is the Oracle's niche), I would render it beholden to their deity's code of conduct with a need for atonement as Clerics do and add the same restrictions against casting spells of opposed alignments that Clerics have.
I can understand the Oracle comparison, which is one of the reasons why divine bloodline doesn't have any abilities to pick spells off the Cleric list. If it's not getting it from the domain, it's not getting it at all.
I wanted to avoid the divine sorcerer being constrained by the cleric's code of conduct or the deity's ethos. The concept here is
more "divine nepo-baby", and opens up roleplay options where your character isn't exactly in line with your deity's ethos. The Clerics are employees, if they don't tow the line they're outta there. The divine sorcerer is the nephew, so long as he's not actively
Liberation offers a host of valuable spells and useful powers, and its Freedom subdomain even gives you Sanctuary and Plane Shift 2 spell levels early.
It's a great domain, but I'm not seeing it as overpowered. Most of the domain spell list is already on the Sorcerer spell list. Sanctuary and Freedom of Movement are great pickups, but I'd disagree on Plane Shift. It's the kind of spell that's very campaign specific, and even then tends to only come up during downtime.
Paragon Surge irrespective of race is very nice, but there's nothing stopping you from just playing a half-elf Sorcerer. This really isn't anything a Sorcerer couldn't have by other means.
Miracle is a great 9th level spell, but honestly I'd say Freedom of Movement at 4th is the better pickup on luck domain. The rest is pretty mediocre. Sorcerers have better 2nd level spells to be casting than Aid.
I'm seeing a lot of good options here, but you are paying your 1st and 10th bloodline powers for them
The arcane sage bloodline doesn't give the sorcerer the means to make their own spell books. I think it would be handy to not have to rely on a wizard to write spell books for them.
This is intentional; the Sage bloodline can use arcane writings, but doesn't create them. If you want to scribe your own spellbook, that's what the bookworm archetype does (which does have natural synergy with sage, but isn't locked to it)
In the previous you've assumed the human loses a skill point and learns a equivalent rather than lower spell level spell. The HP is the higher penalty.
You are mistaken about the spell level, I did take that into account. We can debate whether the skill point or hit point is better. Personally I think the skill point is the better bonus for a Sorcerer, but they are starved for both. However, the spell known bonus is vastly better. I'd sooner take both the Cunning and Toughness feat to compensate, as getting 17 extra spells known over the course of my career is vastly more valuable.
As for the favored class bonus, this is how it would go:
4th level: +1 1st level spell
5th level: +1 1st level spell
6th level: +1 2nd level spell
7th level: +1 2nd level spell
8th level: +1 3rd level spell
9th level: +1 3rd level spell
10th level: +1 4th level spell
11th level: +1 4th level spell
12th level: +1 5th level spell
This means 2 additional spells known at 1st-4th spell levels, and one additional at 5th level. This means human sorcerer is identical to sorcerer unchained at 1st-4th spell level. The difference is that unchained is one spell known ahead at 5th level and two ahead at 6th level (one is a bloodline spell) so those are the levels of the pages of spell knowledge I calculated for. So yes, the highest level slots were the ones I was calculating on.
PoPwr is the standard while Runestone carries the Sor price penalty.
Yes, and the page of spell knowledge is also at a price penalty. Both are exceedingly overpriced and I have literally never seen a PC purchase either item. The pearl of power is a very well-priced item that gets frequently used by wizards. The page of spell knowledge is an overpriced item that is rarely used by sorcerers. This is not a meaningful comparison.
Okay, I'm back. Been very busy for the past week but finally feel like I have a moment to breathe and give a proper response that is carefully thought out.
Being able to reselect your entire bloodline's worth of bonus spells each day is very, very powerful and oftentimes the best possible selection of bloodline spells.
I do think you are overlooking many of the drawbacks and limitations this archetype incurs. You are losing bloodline spells and the bloodline arcana. And the spells you prepare aren't like bloodline spells, you get to cast them once and that's it. There's also the issue of needing both Intelligence and Charisma, which is an expensive proposition. Losing bloodline feats is also a problem; while arcane discoveries are a flavorful option, it is usually going to be worse than what you could choose with the bloodline feats.
I agree it's strong, but I don't think it's a straight upgrade. I also think it would be very underpowered with your suggestion of losing an additional spell at each spell level. If you end up preparing the same spell most days to compensate for not having room to learn it as a spell known, then you aren't really benefiting from the archetype much.
You left this thought unfinished, and I get the idea. It's basically 3.5's Favored Soul that you're creating, but with even fewer restrictions.
Yes, I must have gotten distracted when drafting that. The point is something more akin to say the Dark Urge from Baldur's Gate 3 where unless you come face to face with your divine forebear and piss them off, they're not going to hunt you down and smite you.
As for Cleric casting, a number of Cleric spells can indeed be gained through domains. But being a divine spellcaster still feels like an unneeded upgrade. Perhaps you should only make the domain spells count as divine spells while the rest still count as arcane.
I don't think being a divine caster is that big of an upgrade. It opens up some new possibilities, and closes others. I think this is fine for a bloodline arcana.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Titan bloodline given how strong you seem to feel armored casting is.
Plane Shift is more potent than you take it for. For many enemies it is tantamount to a will save or die as you forcibly plane shift it to a plane it cannot survive, but this does require you to make an attack roll (which is to say that wearing full plate armor and a tower shield without proficiency would render the spell infeasible to land without a casting of True Strike beforehand). It can also be used to plane shift to any extraplanar shopping destination where virtually everything is for sale.
It's a melee touch save negate spell at 5th spell level. This is not at all remarkable for a 5th level spell. Things like Dominate Person and Baleful Polymorph are examples of single-target save negate 5th level spells, and they're both fates worse than death. And they're not even considered aprticularly strong since single-target save negates is pretty bad for a 5th level spell to begin with.
I did mention the Fate subdomain, which gains Augury and Borrow Fortune instead, in addition to being able to force allies and enemies to reroll any roll with the domain power. With the False Focus feat, a Sorcerer can easily cast as many auguries as he pleases, even with leftover spell slots at the end of an adventuring day, making the spell quite a bit more useful than people take it for.
Augury is a decent spell, but it's nothing amazing. I honestly don't think it merits its material component costs. And there are two bloodlines that get Augury as a bloodline spell so it's completely precedented.
Borrow Fortune is excellent, though, and there are no bloodlines that give. No arguments there, that's a top-notch pickup.
The Fate domain's 8th level power is good, but you're gaining it as your 10th level bloodline power. This is not out of line with other 10th level bloodline powers, as reroll effects do exist for these.
I'm not convinced that any of these domains are overpowered. There are strong options out there - as there should be - but none of these look out of line for a Sorcerer bloodline.
I am well aware of all these things. It is not enough of a drawback for what you gain. And with Pearls of Power one can re-cast the same spell multiple times regardless.
While true, I don't think Pearls of Power are a particularly good item for the Bookworm Sorcerer.
Part of what makes them good for a Wizard is the ability to recover the spell you need. So if you've cast 4 different spells, you have a choice of 4 spells to recover with the pearl. This gives it a lot of flexibility. That's not the case for the Bookworm, and this is not the kind of item they will go out of their way to acquire in the same way a Wizard would.
Needing to start with 13 int will not severely harm a Sorcerer.
No, it's not severe. It's one of many drawbacks that add up. Just like the costs in GP and downtime of scribing spells into a spellbook. It's not the end of the world, it's a fairly small expensive relative to your total character wealth, but it is a meaningful cost.
Not particularly. Yuelral's Blessing, Faith Magic, and True Name (which can be selected multiple times) are at least good enough. Other discoveries like Alchemical Affinity and Resilient Illusions, among others, also have their uses. All you really need is one discovery and then use True Name the rest of the way for a potent selection.
Yueral's Blessing and Alchemical Affinity are okay, but there aren't actually many spells that call for a saving throw in the first place that are affected by them. An extra caster level is nice for a bit of extra duration on stuff like Resist Energy, but not worth a feat-equivalent. Spell Focus is going to be a better pick than these discoveries in most cases.
Faith Magic is pretty niche, mostly used for cheesing prerequisites. It's not something I'd be inclined to take as a feat for its own sake. It's especially limiting for the Bookworm since you get exactly one prepared slot at each spell level so there's a big opportunity cost to using it.
True Name is extremely double-edged with an explicit sword of Damocles hanging over your head for taking it. It's extraordinarily powerful, but the counterbalancing threat is so severe that it's not a pick most Wizards touch. I've never seen anyone even consider it (and I have had a Worldseeker Wizard who has used planar ally; he used it sparingly and cautiously)
You could also simply use prestige classes if you do not like what further progression in the Sorcerer class is bringing you, especially since you no longer have to worry about losing out on the spells known favored class bonus and further progress on your bloodline spells.
I think there is a bit of a point here about the Bookworm and PrC's. Sorcerer Unchained is already much more PrC-friendly due to not being beholden to the human FCB. The Bookworm spellbook feature is gained at 1st level and progresses automatically with spellcasting ability, whereas bloodline spells are not gained if you use a PrC to advance spellcasting. While you still lose the arcana, it is losing less than it's supposed to be going into a PrC.
Hmm... perhaps that might actually be a good way to deliver a more restrained nerf while addressing that issue. The ability to prepare spells might be delayed a bit later, and just having the ability to cast spells of that level is not enough. So you'd need to be 5th level before you can prepare that 2nd level spell slot. This would mean the prepared slots would be a level behind for most of your career, weakening the bookworm's highest spell level options. This would also mean the progression of the bookworm's ability would no longer scale automatically with spellcasting ability, which makes it basically useless with a prestige class.
I notice you're not really amending the Sage or Dreamspun bloodlines either.
I significantly nerfed both based on your feedback. They are more restrictive and have fewer uses per day. Sage's 1st level ability is now 1/day to start and gets only a couple extra uses at higher levels. Dreamspun's ability now replaces a spell known, so you have to sacrifice something to gain something else.
There is some concern about making Sorcerers the best warriors in addition to everything else they are good at making other classes feel redundant for, especially since your Titan Sorcerer can make a Barbarian feel inadequate for the first few levels
It's a balancing act, to be sure. Finding the right balance point to give support to a gish sorcerer without letting them outshine martials.
And that a Sorcerer doesnt really need to be unchained.
As I've stated before, there are several points I find problematic with the Sorcerer:
1. The progression dichotomy between prepared and spontaneous casters
2. The human favored class bonus putting most races at a severe disadvantage
3. The overpowered options of the Sorcerer that needed reining in. Yes, there are pretty significant nerfs in unchained.
4. The severe bloodline imbalance; the vast majority of sorcerer bloodlines are very low quality and offer immaterial bonuses
Does it deserve special distinction among the problems of all classes? No, probably not. Did I want to write something to address it? Clearly I did.
You: "No its not [with arguments]"
And just as often I agreed and made changes to dial things back when they were pointed out. I acknowledged right in the original post that some of the stuff might be overtuned or undertuned, and have been taking the feedback I received accordingly.
The one back-and-forth has been with Tom Sampson, and the vast majority of things he pointed out I went in and dialed back. I may not have gone as far as he wanted, but you can't say I was ignoring his points when I was very clearly making revisions in light of the feedback.
And ALL of your changes make him stronger
There are lots of nerfs in there if you stop to look, and they're targeted at the strongest options. But let's just focus on two enormous ones:
1. Spell damage increases no longer stack
2. Ring of Spell Knowledge is 1/day rather than at-will
For min-max blasters, unchained represents about a 30% drop in damage output. Even for builds that don't use Crossblooded, it's about an 18% drop in damage. This is a pretty substantial nerf to one of the areas where Sorcerer is most powerful. It is dialing back one of the Sorcerer's specializations. One of my objectives was equalizing support for different playstyles, and this was achieved equally through nerfing blasting as it was with buffing support for other options.
The Ring of Spell Knowledge is such a broken item that flies under the radar. It's functionally at-will quick study for 1st-4th level spells for a Sorcerer, except you don't need to spend gold or downtime learning them you just need to own the scroll or someone else's spellbook. Unchained limited it to 1/day and has attunement requirements to teach it new spells so you can't hot-swap rings to get around that issue. This is an immense nerf to one of Sorcerer's staple tools.
These are not small nerfs at all.
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Wow, this was definitely a lot of work.
I personally dislike preparing spellcasters. I think the Arcanist is much stronger than the Wizard. I find the Cleric rather weak, even though most people seem to think otherwise. But that might just be due to our play style.
That said, I really love many of these changes. The idea of making sure the damage boost doesn't stack is fantastic. Also, turning some of the weaker bloodlines into a valid option is a great improvement.
The Dragon Disciple is my favorite prestige class, and I’ve always disliked when people say you should only take four levels in it. Making the dragon form abilities more worthwhile sounds great to me. Especially giving access to the other form of the dragon spells. However, I don’t understand why you’ve given it 3/day for hours per level. Why not do something like the Armor of Bones from the Bones Mystery, where it’s for hours per level in 1-hour increments?
Good to have some free Sorcerer Unchained stuff out there for PF1e, Dasrak. ;)
I find the Cleric rather weak, even though most people seem to think otherwise. But that might just be due to our play style.
A lot of people who feel this way haven’t tried leaving some spell slots open for later preparation. 15 minute prep to have access to your entire possible spell list. That’s super versatile. A wizard who focuses on learning his entire spell list in his spellbook, will never reasonably finish and will spend a large amount of gold. The cleric gets that by default.
Adjacent to differences of opinion in power levels, how do you foresee this homebrew being used? I can’t imagine many GMs are going to want a player playing one of these in their campaign over the default sorcerer. Is anyone planning on adding this to their own campaigns?
The other thing to keep in mind about the cleric is they have better defenses then arcane casters. They can wear and cast in armor and have good Fort and Will save. Those saving throws are more important because spell targeting them tend to be save or die rather than just damage. Their higher HP and BAB than arcane casters also contribute to their power level. The higher HP allows them to actually survive being in combat and minimize their poor reflex saves. Surviving the encounter is just as important if not more than winning the encounter. These are all things an arcane caster usually struggles with.
My impression is that most clerics are decent at surviving and can hold their own in combat while still dealing some damage. Of course, they’re also full casters. So on paper, they seem great. However, it’s better to avoid standing alone in front of the BBEG. And about your spells at those moments, an arcane caster really shows you what it means to be a true spellcaster. Clerics tend to end up focusing on buffing or healing, which, while important, isn’t particularly exciting. So, while you need a reliable divine caster, clerics can sometimes feel like they’re just doing a rather dull job when the action gets intense.
A lot of people who feel this way haven’t tried leaving some spell slots open for later preparation. 15 minute prep to have access to your entire possible spell list. That’s super versatile.
That’s true and can help in some situations. Personally, I prefer doing this with an oracle — stocking up on scrolls and using a Mnemonic Vestment. It’s not quite as good as the method you mentioned, but it’s close. Also you don’t need to memorize the entire spell list or have the perfect solution at the right moment. Instead, you can prepare properly and then just check your equipment once your spells known won't help. Plus, it’s a lot quicker in game. Though obviously limited.
Adjacent to differences of opinion in power levels, how do you foresee this homebrew being used? I can’t imagine many GMs are going to want a player playing one of these in their campaign over the default sorcerer. Is anyone planning on adding this to their own campaigns?
I’ve seen Burning Hands deal 5d4+10 damage at level 1, and in those situations, I definitely prefer this Unchained Sorcerer. Kind of funny though when the minimum damage kills your enemies even though they save. :)
But honestly, if my players were to ask, I’d probably agree, but I wouldn’t allow the increased spell progression.
There is a huge difference between being weak and being boring. If you think clerics are any less a full caster read Treantmonks guide to a wizard. That guide is considered one of the best for advising on how to play a wizard. It might be a little outdated on the details, but the points still remain valid even with all the new spells and archetypes. In reality most if not all the advice in that guide can also apply to a cleric.
If your cleric is healing in combat either things are so tough that your party is facing a TPK and would probably be dead without the cleric, or the cleric is not doing his job right. Healing for the most part should be done out of combat and primarily through magic items. About the only time the cleric should be using his own spells for healing HP is during downtime or at the end of the day when the party resting in a safe location.
How effective a cleric’s spell are in combat really depends on the nature of the campaign and the build of the cleric. The spells of the cleric in the campaign I ran that was focused mainly on undead with evil outsiders being the second most common foe were highly effective. The cleric worshiped Sarenrae and rarely if ever used his scimitar.
The cleric has channel and spontaneous cure spells for the purpose of not needing to focus on healing. Realistically, you're going to need to heal in combat sometimes though. Bad luck happens. I'd say the main problem with cleric is how it starts in one place and ends in another. At low level, your physical abilities are solid. You have ok BAB, HP and proficiencies, which makes you feel like you should be more like a martial build. And you have few spells to use per day. But by mid level, your spells are amazing and you'll rarely use your martial abilities. I think the Oracle feels better to people, because it feels more like a caster and less like a martial from level 1.
I personally dislike preparing spellcasters. I think the Arcanist is much stronger than the Wizard. I find the Cleric rather weak, even though most people seem to think otherwise. But that might just be due to our play style.
Preference can definitely play a role here, and prepared casters definitely need more system mastery to reach their full potential, but it is very powerful.
I've already stated my position several times in this thread, and I feel the main power difference comes from prepared casters getting new spell levels a level earlier, and otherwise they are pretty equitable.
The Dragon Disciple is my favorite prestige class, and I’ve always disliked when people say you should only take four levels in it.
It really depends on your build. For those going into Eldritch Knight afterwards, taking more than 4 levels of DD means you're locking yourself out of EK's capstone. So I can understand why a lot of builds stop at 4. I don't think the 5-8 levels are as bad as people make them out to be, but they definitely are high commitment and not every build can afford them.
However, I don’t understand why you’ve given it 3/day for hours per level. Why not do something like the Armor of Bones from the Bones Mystery, where it’s for hours per level in 1-hour increments?
I like the suggestion! It's a lot smoother, and I'm definitely implementing that.
Adjacent to differences of opinion in power levels, how do you foresee this homebrew being used? I can’t imagine many GMs are going to want a player playing one of these in their campaign over the default sorcerer. Is anyone planning on adding this to their own campaigns?
I'd be curious to hear about if it anyone uses one of these options in any capacity.
My current campaign probably won't finish until 2026. If one of my players want to use this they're welcome to, but it'll be a while before they're back to character creation.
If your cleric is healing in combat either things are so tough that your party is facing a TPK and would probably be dead without the cleric, or the cleric is not doing his job right. Healing for the most part should be done out of combat and primarily through magic items. About the only time the cleric should be using his own spells for healing HP is during downtime or at the end of the day when the party resting in a safe location.
I was actually thinking more about removing conditions during combat rather than healing hit points. It may not technically be 'healing,' but we still refer to it that way. However, I have used the Heal spell in combat before to restore HP. ;)
The old belief that healing isn't effective in combat often comes from playing clerics. However, if you specialize in healing, it can work really well. I've seen this done with an Oracle of Life. This shows the real issue with the cleric though, the class tries to do everything but isn't particularly outstanding at anything. That's why I don't enjoy playing a cleric.or the cleric is not doing his job right
I tend to be careful about telling people how to play their character.
Like anything there is exception to the idea that healing in combat is not effective. What it really comes down to is the action economy.
A life Oracle using life link takes a standard action to start, but after that does not require any actions. It also for the most part last until the Oracle dismisses it, or he dies. The healing does not prevent the oracle from performing other actions. The oracle may need to spend an action to heal himself if the cumulative damage puts him in danger but otherwise can still do other things. This minimizes the impact of healing has on the action economy. A paladin using lay on hands on himself is another in combat healing that is highly effective. Outside those there are very few times when healing in combat is effective.
Condition removal might be the one time where healing in combat is necessary, but that really depends on the severity of the condition and the situation. Minor condition like dazzled or shaken can wait till after combat to be dealt with. Condition that takes the other character out of the combat might need to be dealt with immediately especially if the character in question in in danger of being killed. In cases where the impaired character is not in danger of dying the cleric should evaluate who is more effective at dealing with the problem at hand before deciding to heal in combat. When done this way condition removal is no longer the boring second-string action.
I can understand the reluctance to tell another player how to play their character, but that does not change the fact they are doing a poor job of supporting the rest of the party. At that point the problem is not with the cleric’s class, the problem is the cleric’s player.