| Shai2e |
So Sneak attack works against off-guard enemies, and jinkins are normally written as only having a melee weapon.
Now, jinkins are tiny, so they cannot flank.
If they attack in melee, they cannot remain hidden then attack so their enemy won't be off guard (or did I miss something?)
They have no special ability to make the enemy off-guard, which only leaves the option of feint, which they only have +5 to.
So other than feinting, how would you make use of the jinkin sneak attack?
| NorrKnekten |
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Yup, Tiny creatures cannot flank without a reach weapon.
One adventure fixes this by giving an encounter of tiny creatures reach weapons where they otherwise would have shortswords/daggers. That said a +5 deception can still be threathening to PCs without a decent Wis.
Its a rather well designed 1st level creature meant for encounters where the creatures outnumber PCs. As a GM you can even have them trick players into picking up cursed items they drop midcombat to play into their flavor.
| NorrKnekten |
I would disagree it's good design that an introductory monster is unable to use an ability because of a technicality with no reminder text in its statblock. That's just confusing to a new GM.
Here is the fun thing, I actually agree with this. Because a level 1 creature and an introductory creature are two different things.
You want a good introductory creature for new players/GMs? then its better to stick with Skulks, Wolves and skeletons.
You starting off a new campaign with an experienced group by tossing them into a room full of traps and cursed objects, With the ensuing chaos that is befitting of fey critters? Jinkins.
| Witch of Miracles |
Witch of Miracles wrote:I would disagree it's good design that an introductory monster is unable to use an ability because of a technicality with no reminder text in its statblock. That's just confusing to a new GM.Here is the fun thing, I actually agree with this. Because a level 1 creature and an introductory creature are two different things.
You want a good introductory creature for new players/GMs? then its better to stick with Skulks, Wolves and skeletons.
You starting off a new campaign with an experienced group by tossing them into a room full of traps and cursed objects, With the ensuing chaos that is befitting of fey critters? Jinkins.
Even ignoring that most level 1 monsters should just count as introductory by the structure of the game...
Jinkins are by far the most common enemy early on in Season of Ghosts, which is probably going to become the most played PF2E AP because of its reputation. For better or worse, it is an introductory monster now.
Ascalaphus
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PF2 APs are full of stuff like slavers who have 1-2 fancy moves to apply shackles mid-combat to do a weird version of Grab. In general, NPCs and monsters can have abilities that vaguely look like PC abilities, but work differently, are perfectly suited to the creature, and would probably be abusive as heck in PC hands.
All that to say, that I think jinkins should have had a bespoke ability, rather than generic sneak attack. Something like an "ankle strike" that they specifically use when in your square.
| Errenor |
I don't really want to open another thread about Jinkins, so I'll ask here: should Jinkins be considered expert in crafting traps? Meaning, if a jinkin crafts a snare, do the PCs have to actively look for it or use some exploration action to notice it, or can they notice it passively?
"In some situations, such as when a creature is trying to Disable a PC’s snare, you need to know the creature’s proficiency rank. Creatures are trained in the skills listed in their stat blocks and untrained in skills that aren’t listed. A creature usually has expert proficiency in its listed skills around 5th level, master proficiency around 9th level, and legendary proficiency around 17th level. A creature might need a certain proficiency rank in Perception to detect certain things. Many creatures have expert proficiency in Perception and improve to master proficiency around 7th level and legendary proficiency around 13th level.
At your discretion, creatures with world-class aptitude for a particular skill or in Perception, such as a shadow with Stealth, might have a higher proficiency rank in that skill or Perception."
I'd say that Expert for a 1st level creature is too much, even if they are specialized in traps a bit.
| Hill Giant |
I don't really want to open another thread about Jinkins, so I'll ask here: should Jinkins be considered expert in crafting traps? Meaning, if a jinkin crafts a snare, do the PCs have to actively look for it or use some exploration action to notice it, or can they notice it passively?
If you subtract their Intelligence and level from their Craft (traps) modifier, you get +4 which implies expert proficiency.
OTOH, I say do whatever you think will be more fun for your players. Last year I ran a 10th level party against a dozen vexgit gremlins (level 1 creatures), but made all the traps in their lair roughly 10th level. The party suffered significant damage and such from the traps, but got the catharsis of squashing gremlins in one or two hits.
| BigHatMarisa |
Yeah, it definitely seems like Jinkins aren't supposed to be flanking for Sneak Attack, even though that's the first use-case that's typical for it. Creating a Diversion (something they're quite capable at and flavorful for) seems like the way they'd go about it most consistently, if they're even resorting to lethal violence at all.