Agressive Block

[Isolde.123]

We had a heated discussion about Aggressive Block. If the blocking creature uses this action after being attacked, and the attacker opts to be shoved, but there’s space to be shoved into an open area as well as into another creature, whose decision takes precedence? Does the blocking creature’s choice of movement override the attacker’s preference? Can the blocking creature, despite the available options, choose to disregard the attacker’s decision?

[Finoan]

It is a bit strange because Shove doesn't let you pick a direction. So Aggressive Block saying that the blocker uses Shove for a 5 foot distance, but gets to pick a direction doesn't make a lot of sense. This would all make a lot more sense if Aggressive Block itself chooses the direction and moves the attacker directly away from the blocker the way that Shove does.

But that is not what is written.

So... ignoring Shove and treating Aggressive Block as just a forced movement effect where when you push an enemy a distance of 5 feet you also get to choose the direction:

The attacker gets the first choice: Stay in place and gain Off-Guard, or be moved by the blocker.

If the attacker chooses to be moved, the blocker then gets the next choice: the choice of location. Move the attacker to a chosen location 5 feet away.

If that chosen location is occupied or otherwise not a valid location to stand in, then the attacker does not get another choice. They must become Off-Guard in their original location.

Nothing in the attacker's first choice requires the blocker to choose an unoccupied location for the movement destination.

[NorrKnekten]

PC.422 Forced Movement wrote:

Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you're pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can't put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there's doubt on where forced movement can move a creature.

Yup. What Finoan says checks out. Attacker can only choose between being shoved or offguard, Blocker can force offguard by pushing them into an obstacle.

Though I do believe Shove technically does let you choose a direction, As long as the creature ends up further away. Not important to the question though and there are previous threads that have talked about that.

[ottdmk]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Though I do believe Shove technically does let you choose a direction, As long as the creature ends up further away.

That's always been my interpretation. Away on a diagonal is still away (as one example.)

[Finoan]

How about 'away' at a 90 degree angle?

Or better yet, how about 'away' at a 120 degree angle as follows:

Before Blue Shoves Red:
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⭕⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

After Shove 10 feet:

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⭕⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

Though I suppose if people are thinking that this is a valid direction for Shove, that would explain why people are also thinking that Reposition should be able to move targets into hazardous terrain.

[Isolde.123]

So, just because I’m a bit stupid or confused—why is there even a choice in the first place? It seems like the choice is kind of pointless if the opposing person can just always ignore it anyway, right? :/

[Finoan]

Isolde.123 wrote:

So, just because I’m a bit stupid or confused—why is there even a choice in the first place? It seems like the choice is kind of pointless if the opposing person can just always ignore it anyway, right? :/

Meaning the attacker's choice of either be moved or be Off-Guard?

It isn't always a pointless choice. If there are no occupied spaces that the blocker could move the attacker to, then the attacker couldn't make a choice that results in ignoring the attacker's choice to be moved and not be Off-Guard.

And no matter the terrain or space occupancy, if the attacker wants to stay in their location, they always have the first choice do to that and be Off-Guard. The blocker doesn't have any choice to make at that point.

[NorrKnekten]

Finoan wrote:

How about 'away' at a 90 degree angle?

Or better yet, how about 'away' at a 120 degree angle as follows:

Why do you think this is what we meant? In what world does pushed 10ft away mean the distance increases by 5ft? Can only do 10ft away in 3 different ways. Better yet, Put someone at a straight diagonal and push them 10ft in a line straight away, Doesn't work.

Just use a cone template.

[Finoan]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Finoan wrote:

How about 'away' at a 90 degree angle?

Or better yet, how about 'away' at a 120 degree angle as follows:

Why do you think this is what we meant? In what world does pushed 10ft away mean the distance increases by 5ft? Can only do 10ft away in 3 different ways. Better yet, Put someone at a straight diagonal and push them 10ft in a line straight away, Doesn't work.

Just use a cone template.

Because no one specified that. The requirements were:

Quote:

Shove technically does let you choose a direction, As long as the creature ends up further away.

No limits on angle. Only that the end point has to be farther away from the person doing Shove than the target started from. So a crit success on Shove moves the target 10 feet. And the 120 degree angle would meet the requirements specified previously.

If you instead want to use a cone template, specify that. You being unspecific and vague doesn't mean that I am misunderstanding you.

[Bluemagetim]

Using Finoan's graphic representation there are three spaces I would think Red could be shoved into for a 5ft shove.

⬜⬜⭕⭕⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

and three spaces blue could stride to. two of which are the exclusive option for the right or the left red position, the center option being acceptable for any red position. Right and left are the first diagonal so are ok for 5ft movement.

⬜⬜⭕⭕⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

Now thats how I see it working becasue in order to get any other position the red would have to move through space that isnt away from blue. If red has to travel through any of the squares depicted below then red is not actually moving away from start to finish they are moving adjacent then away.Edited: reds starting square should be excluded.

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕⬜⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕⭕⭕⬜⬜

[NorrKnekten]

Yeah thats my view on it to. Just didn't feel the need to specify the text on Shove itself.

Though I am of the mind that blue can only follow into that center spot for a 5ft shove as the section on Forced Movement states that unless otherwise stated a creature using an ability that carries another creature along (I presume shove counts). Then the carrying creature needs to follow the same path as the victim as to not push the victim into hazards while itself avoiding them.

[Errenor]

Finoan wrote:

It is a bit strange because Shove doesn't let you pick a direction. So Aggressive Block saying that the blocker uses Shove for a 5 foot distance, but gets to pick a direction doesn't make a lot of sense. This would all make a lot more sense if Aggressive Block itself chooses the direction and moves the attacker directly away from the blocker the way that Shove does.

Bluemagetim wrote:

Using Finoan's graphic representation there are three spaces I would think Red could be shoved into for a 5ft shove.

I could also very well see these directions for diagonal shoving (more so than for straight shoving even):

⬜⬜⬜⬜⭕⭕⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜🎱⭕⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

[Baarogue]

I don't know why this has to be so dramatic that we need diagrams

They call it "Shove" so it can interact with class features, feats, etc. that interact with Shove. So for instance if someone has an ability that does 1 damage to anyone they Shove, it would do so with Aggressive Block's Shove

It also informs where the creature can be moved. Shove says "You push a creature away from you."

"Away" means further than before. Otherwise it's Reposition. So any direction that is perpendicular, or ends with the creature the same distance or closer to you than before the Shove should be invalid

And finally it only disallows being Shoved into solid objects, difficult terrain, or another creature's space. It might be unlikely that a creature would choose to be shoved into a hazard that's not any of those things instead of becoming off-guard, but it's not impossible. That's another thing you can't do with Reposition or "unnamed forced movement that isn't a push or pull" due to the forced movement rules

[Claxon]

I've always fell into the camp that shove it only ever in the direction created by drawing a straight line through the two characters center of squares from the person starting the shove into the person being shoved.

Otherwise, it's a reposition which allows you to move them anywhere in reach. To me, if you can move them in any direction it's simply better than reposition in every way.

However, I now agree with a cone template of position options, but Finoan's first diagram example in this thread I would not consider a valid shove. Bluemagetim's first example diagram is how I view this working.

[Errenor]

Claxon wrote:

I've always fell into the camp that shove it only ever in the direction created by drawing a straight line through the two characters center of squares from the person starting the shove into the person being shoved.

Otherwise, it's a reposition which allows you to move them anywhere in reach. To me, if you can move them in any direction it's simply better than reposition in every way.

However, I now agree with a cone template of position options, but Finoan's first diagram example in this thread I would not consider a valid shove. Bluemagetim's first example diagram is how I view this working.

Well, you probably can keep your ruling on Shove and allow these things above for Aggressive Block because it explicitly allows some choice of direction. Or yes, make them uniform.

[Trip.H]

Our table(s) also do the cone / "must be further away" method.

It both makes Shove have a lot more neat use-cases, as *some* lateral movement is kinda required for Shove to push foes off ledges, while also still making sense / avoiding the silly-looking sideways Shove.

[NorrKnekten]

Errenor wrote:

Claxon wrote:

I've always fell into the camp that shove it only ever in the direction created by drawing a straight line through the two characters center of squares from the person starting the shove into the person being shoved.

Otherwise, it's a reposition which allows you to move them anywhere in reach. To me, if you can move them in any direction it's simply better than reposition in every way.

However, I now agree with a cone template of position options, but Finoan's first diagram example in this thread I would not consider a valid shove. Bluemagetim's first example diagram is how I view this working.

Well, you probably can keep your ruling on Shove and allow these things above for Aggressive Block because it explicitly allows some choice of direction. Or yes, make them uniform.

I think the reason for as to why Aggressive Block explicitly says that you choose the direction is because it says the Attacker 'chooses' to be moved and that is why it is clarifying who chooses the direction.