Inconsistent descriptions on Grave spells with areas, and other mechanical weirdness.

[Rowenstin]

I’d ask you to forgive me for the insistence on this issue if it’s similar to another thread I opened several days ago, but I’ve had a lot of discussion in other forums that makes the discussion very different and I’d like to bring this to your attention.

Several of the focus Grave spells, namely Bone Spear, Necrotic Bomb, Bony Barrage and Flesh Tsunami function in essentially the same way, an area with an unconventional point of origin, however the spells’ headlines are all different. It’s difficult to know RAW if those differences denote a change in their function, or it’s merely a result of them not being subject to a thorough editing yet (which would be natural seeing that this is only a playtest)

To clarify what I mean, look at Bone spear. The target says “1 creature (see text)”, and presumably that creature is the thrall you use as fuel. My interpretation is that the “see text” portion of the line is important, as the text describes how the spell is a line that originates from the thrall; it0d be no much different mechanically from, say, lightning bolt except for the attack roll instead of a save except for the Thrall detail.

However there are people that understand that the spell is cast on the Thrall, and then a secondary effect happens, in the same way the Blister happens or perhaps Final Sacrifice would be a better comparison. This is perfectly consistent with the wording on the spell, but I think has some curious consequences; for example, if the line catches enemies that are currently Hidden or concealed to you, you would not need to roll a miss chance against them, since they are not targets of the spell; the Thrall was the only target.

The other spells do list an area in the headline except Necrotic bomb which also has now a “Target: 1 Thrall” line instead of “1 creature”. Anyway, this makes the spells a bit confusing. Normally it doesn’t make a real difference, but I found out that they interact in a weird way with Spellstrike if the necromancer picks up Magus dedication and the Spellstriker and Expansice Spellstrike feats.

It’s difficult to say if Bone Spear is even usable with spellstrike. If the spell is intended to be a line, it would work normally though it’s unclear how the requirement of sacrificing a thrall would work. If the “Target: 1 creature” is what’s important, you could in principle Strike the thrall, and the line would originate from it, making the Spellstrike pointless. Some argue that Bone Spear isn0t even usable with spellstrike.

The others, as they have an area in their headline in principle are usable with spellstrike though it’s still unclear how they interact. Spellstrike with Flesh Tsunami would be straightforward, as it specifies in the text how far the Thrall has to be, however others list the range on the headlines, and Spellstrike makes ranges irrelevant, perhaps meaning that the Thrall can be at any distance.

Also, now that we’re here I’d like to see what’s your opinion on what happens when you Sustain Recurring Nightmare and the thrall is dead. Does it summon the same thrall, or is functionally another identical one? Because if it’s the same Thrall (which re-summoning would imply) then effects cast on it beforehand would persist.

[shroudb]

Well, Area Effects, like Lines and such, do not roll for miss chance to begin with.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

Not sure you need spellstrike to hit your thrall. They are always autohit and are destroyed…. [quickly ducks under table]…

In all seriousness, these seem easy to adjudicate RaI, but RAW….not so much. Definitely feel like they need…edits.

[YuriP]

Rowenstin wrote:

I’d ask you to forgive me for the insistence on this issue if it’s similar to another thread I opened several days ago, but I’ve had a lot of discussion in other forums that makes the discussion very different and I’d like to bring this to your attention.

Several of the focus Grave spells, namely Bone Spear, Necrotic Bomb, Bony Barrage and Flesh Tsunami function in essentially the same way, an area with an unconventional point of origin, however the spells’ headlines are all different. It’s difficult to know RAW if those differences denote a change in their function, or it’s merely a result of them not being subject to a thorough editing yet (which would be natural seeing that this is only a playtest)

To clarify what I mean, look at Bone spear. The target says “1 creature (see text)”, and presumably that creature is the thrall you use as fuel. My interpretation is that the “see text” portion of the line is important, as the text describes how the spell is a line that originates from the thrall; it0d be no much different mechanically from, say, lightning bolt except for the attack roll instead of a save except for the Thrall detail.

However there are people that understand that the spell is cast on the Thrall, and then a secondary effect happens, in the same way the Blister happens or perhaps Final Sacrifice would be a better comparison. This is perfectly consistent with the wording on the spell, but I think has some curious consequences; for example, if the line catches enemies that are currently Hidden or concealed to you, you would not need to roll a miss chance against them, since they are not targets of the spell; the Thrall was the only target.

The other spells do list an area in the headline except Necrotic bomb which also has now a “Target: 1 Thrall” line instead of “1 creature”. Anyway, this makes the spells a bit confusing. Normally it doesn’t make a real difference, but I found out that they interact in a weird way with Spellstrike if the necromancer picks up Magus dedication and the...

I understood your point now. Once that the Bone Spear specifically says "1 target" that target would be your sacrificed thrall and this thrall position will be the source of AoE damage you can consider that you are primary targeting a thrall and not the creatures in the subsequent AoE. So once that spellstrike says that you change the target to your SpellStrike target this spell becomes "invalid" to use with SpellStrike (unless for some unknow reason you decide to Strike your own thrall).

It's a valid interpretation once that the spell isn't clear about what is your target, making us to consider that the sacrificed thrall is the target.

That said the other spells like Necrotic Bomb are OK IMO in order to SpellStrike with it. It doesn´t specify that the thrall is your target just that you use this thrall as "fuel" so all other effects will be subject to normal SpellStrike changes.

IMO it's probably that the target entry of Bone Spear is a mistake once that the other spells doesn't use such entry to work in same way.