The Leap action states that for a horizontal Leap, you land in the space where your Leap ends, and for a vertical Leap, you're jumping onto an elevated surface. Many interpret this to mean that the action doesn't end until you hit the ground, so you can't use any remaining actions until then. But I think this interpretation is too rigid and causes a number of features to not make sense.
Leshy Glide: A single action that lets you glide while falling. It's not a reaction, and the description reveals that it's not supposed to be a reaction. The intent seems to be to Leap off a cliff then Leshy Glide to fall more slowly.
Wall Jump: This feat only does anything if you end your Leap next to a wall with no ground to land on.
Soft Landing: This spell from Dark Archive tells you it can be cast while falling and even cites noninstantaneous falling as the reason you can do this.
This basicly boils down to when do falling happen again.
dont think any of the threads have gotten to a clear answer on that yet.
but having the rules work like looneytunes fells wrong
The rules for Simultaneous Actions are there for a reason.
In the general case, the restrictions that it causes on Leap are fine.
No, a character shouldn't be allowed to Leap and Strike an enemy mid-jump for just the two actions. I don't want to give every character an improved version of Flying Kick for free at level 1.
Yes, I do relax the rule for specific things, such as Leshy Glide and Wall Jump. Specific overrides General.
Soft Landing is a bad example for your argument. The note that it has is saying that if you are falling a very long distance that you can cast the 2-action spell while you fall as long as your landing point is within the one mile casting range. That isn't a scenario that you are going to encounter by using the Leap action.
Oh, I didn't know about Flying Kick. Flying Kick would still be saving you action economy though. Spending two actions to Flying Kick would cost less than spending two actions to High Jump then one action to make an unarmed Strike.
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Flying Kick doesn't save you any actions over a one-action Leap (which can have its distance upgraded) and a one-action Strike (that is not restricted to unarmed attacks).
What about Stepping off a cliff? You move 5 feet and the action ends. This means you could still use other actions on the way down. It seems kind of arbitrary to say the fall after a jump from a Leap is extra debilitating compared to a fall after Stepping off a ledge.
Flying Kick doesn't save you any actions over a one-action Leap (which can have its distance upgraded) and a one-action Strike (that is not restricted to unarmed attacks).
Also, quick jump is a level 1 feat. So with OP's interpretation, a level 1 skill feat allows you to long/high jump and strike as two actions.
What about Stepping off a cliff? You move 5 feet and the action ends. This means you could still use other actions on the way down. It seems kind of arbitrary to say the fall after a jump from a Leap is extra debilitating compared to a fall after Stepping off a ledge.
Falling rules say you fall 500 feet in the first round. Your fall is effectively instantaneous for purposes of tactical movement in encounter mode. The second you are off the cliff you are gone. If you have 500 feet to fall, then yes you can use other actions during the fall, but it would be nearly impossible to hit someone while falling since you would move past them way too fast.
Per the fly action, if you're airbone and don't Fly before the end of your turn you fall.
As far as I know there is no other mention of when you fall anywhere else in the rules.
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Per the fly action, if you're airbone and don't Fly before the end of your turn you fall.
As far as I know there is no other mention of when you fall anywhere else in the rules.
Here's the text from the 8th Level Monk Feat Wall Run
You defy gravity, traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground. Stride up to your Speed. You must start your movement on a horizontal surface. During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed. If you end the Stride off the ground, you fall after taking your next action or when your turn ends, whichever comes first (though you can Grab an Edge, if applicable). If you have Water Step or a similar ability, Wall Run lets you run along flimsy vertical surfaces, as well as vertical liquids, such as a waterfall.
I've seen similar language several other places*, so I think of it as the standard way of how this works, though that may not be the case. This is how I currently run the timing of falling though -- you get one action+reaction to do a thing to halt it, and then you fall.
*Not going to hunt for other cites, but I think they are in places like low-level Ancestry Feats for Ancestries that eventually get flight (like Awakened Animal and Sprite).
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But both Flying kick and Waal run would be almost pointless if the base thing is you can do one action before you fall.
i would asume that they are special cases where you have time to do anything other then reaction before you fall.
and flying last round is not realy the same as jumping of a cliff, so i would not rule it the same as not using the fly action.
so you cant realy fall at the end of your turn nor after one action it needs to be something worse
Flying Kick doesn't save you any actions over a one-action Leap (which can have its distance upgraded) and a one-action Strike (that is not restricted to unarmed attacks).Also, quick jump is a level 1 feat. So with OP's interpretation, a level 1 skill feat allows you to long/high jump and strike as two actions.
Don't forget that Quick Jump removes the subordinate Stride, so unless you are already underneath an enemy you want to High Jump to hit, you'd still need three actions to jump up and hit them.
What about Stepping off a cliff? You move 5 feet and the action ends. This means you could still use other actions on the way down. It seems kind of arbitrary to say the fall after a jump from a Leap is extra debilitating compared to a fall after Stepping off a ledge.Falling rules say you fall 500 feet in the first round. Your fall is effectively instantaneous for purposes of tactical movement in encounter mode. The second you are off the cliff you are gone. If you have 500 feet to fall, then yes you can use other actions during the fall, but it would be nearly impossible to hit someone while falling since you would move past them way too fast.
After falling 500 feet, yes, you'd be going pretty fast. But when you start falling, you aren't going fast at all. Maybe the GM would give a Strike at that point a circumstance penalty to account for hitting things while falling being difficult, but it's not like you're paralyzed.
I would not recommend basing any assumptions off of gliding abilities, since none of them work as written.
I would not recommend basing any assumptions off of gliding abilities, since none of them work as written.
That's part of my original point. Leshy Glide assumes that falling is not instantaneous and would be useless if it were.
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That's part of my original point. Leshy Glide assumes that falling is not instantaneous and would be useless if it were.I would not recommend basing any assumptions off of gliding abilities, since none of them work as written.
And that is the purpose of my first response. Leshy Glide (and similar) should get a specific override of the general rules so that the ability works.
We don't use this one category of abilities as a reason to change the general rules.
That's part of my original point. Leshy Glide assumes that falling is not instantaneous and would be useless if it were.I would not recommend basing any assumptions off of gliding abilities, since none of them work as written.
its dont require that at all, you can use it when standing on the ledge of a cliff and it works just fine. or after you have fallen 500ft
there is an entire thread about Leshy glide on this forum with several examples and "pictures" how the movment would work RAW
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43b7t?How-do-you-use-Leshy-Glide#1
That's part of my original point. Leshy Glide assumes that falling is not instantaneous and would be useless if it were.I would not recommend basing any assumptions off of gliding abilities, since none of them work as written.
And that is the purpose of my first response. Leshy Glide (and similar) should get a specific override of the general rules so that the ability works.
We don't use this one category of abilities as a reason to change the general rules.
Were you not just doing the same with Flying Kick? "You can't Leap then take another action while falling because otherwise Flying Kick would be bad." There's no general rule saying falls are resolved instantly.
Leshy Glide (and similar) should get a specific override of the general rules so that the ability works.
What general rule?
Leshy Glide (and similar) should get a specific override of the general rules so that the ability works.What general rule?
The Simultaneous Actions rule that says that you have to finish one action before you can use another one.
The one that says that if you Leap off the building, you fall to the ground. You can't Leshy Glide while you are in the air.
That's part of my original point. Leshy Glide assumes that falling is not instantaneous and would be useless if it were.I would not recommend basing any assumptions off of gliding abilities, since none of them work as written.
its dont require that at all, you can use it when standing on the ledge of a cliff and it works just fine. or after you have fallen 500ft
there is an entire thread about Leshy glide on this forum with several examples and "pictures" how the movment would work RAW
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43b7t?How-do-you-use-Leshy-Glide#1
If you're still on solid ground, there's no descent to control. And how often does one fall more than 500 feet?
The one that says that if you Leap off the building, you fall to the ground.
When?
You can't Leshy Glide while you are in the air.
Why not?
The one that says that if you Leap off the building, you fall to the ground.When?
You can't Leshy Glide while you are in the air.Why not?
Because Leap says that you land as part of the action.
Horizontal jump ... You land in the space where your leap ends.
Vertical jump ... onto an elevated surface.
I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before. Probably in that thread that Ravingdork linked to.
Leshy Glide (and similar) should get a specific override of the general rules so that the ability works.What general rule?The Simultaneous Actions rule that says that you have to finish one action before you can use another one.
The one that says that if you Leap off the building, you fall to the ground. You can't Leshy Glide while you are in the air.
Who's to say the Leap action isn't finished as soon as you reach the chosen destination space and before you start falling? In fact, falling is explicitly forced movement, not part of any move action.
It says you land in the space where your leap ends, which is 10 feet away for the horizontal jump action. If you allow someone to leap 10000 squares (2 horizontally and then 9998 down an arbitrarily tall cliff) that's clearly not consistent with the written text you presented either (you're also violating the falling rules too by falling more than 500 feet in a round).
It also doesn't address your assertion that you can't Leshy Glide while in midair at all.
Who's to say the Leap action isn't finished as soon as you reach the chosen destination space and before you start falling? In fact, falling is explicitly forced movement, not part of any move action.
And who's to say that a space in mid-air is a valid destination space to target with Leap?
Tactical Space is only sort-of defined, and is mostly defined only for 2-D movement.
For example: I don't think you can target a space 15 feet above you in the air as the target destination space for a Horizontal Leap or Long Jump.
At best, you are arguing that the rules are ambiguous. Which I will agree with.
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It also doesn't address your assertion that you can't Leshy Glide while in midair at all.
Well, you can use Leshy Glide while in mid air. Just not in the middle of your Leap action.
And if you don't land somewhere, how did you end Leap?
So if you Leap off a tall enough building, you can Leshy Glide after you fall the required distance and haven't hit the ground yet.
Yes, this is absolutely broken by strict RAW. That is why I don't recommend running the game like that. Leshy Glide should have an override of the general rule to say that you can use the action any time that you are in the air - such as the middle of a Leap action.
The problem is we keep saying "override of the general rule" when in the three years we've been discussing this no one has been able to find the general rule in the first place wrt fall timing.
Leshy glide is just an interesting example because a few people are extremely confident that the ability is broken because it conflicts with a rule that doesn't exist.
You've pointed to the rules for Leaping but what if you teleported into the air instead?
So if you Leap off a tall enough building, you can Leshy Glide after you fall the required distance and haven't hit the ground yet.
But you just said you have to land to finish your leap action, so that can never happen, right?
And who's to say that a space in mid-air is a valid destination space to target with Leap?
This is an interesting point though. If we take land to mean end in a solid square that supports you, then it might simply be illegal to perform a leap that would end in the air in the first place.
That does have the odd side effect of making it essentially impossible to wilingly jump or fall off a cliff, though.
And who's to say that a space in mid-air is a valid destination space to target with Leap?
You are. Or are you now saying that Flying Kick doesn't work at all? If you use Flying Kick to High Jump to reach a Flying enemy, do you think the High Jump itself can't be done unless there's an "elevated surface" to land on?
Tactical Space is only sort-of defined, and is mostly defined only for 2-D movement.
That rule you just linked spells out how to apply tactical space in three dimensions.
For example: I don't think you can target a space 15 feet above you in the air as the target destination space for a Horizontal Leap or Long Jump.
At best, you are arguing that the rules are ambiguous. Which I will agree with.
That's not even ambiguous. A horizontal Leap explicitly moves you horizontally. Long Jump sends you in the direction of the Stride.