How do you use Leshy Glide?


Rules Discussion


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Leshy Glide feat takes an action to activate, but since falling is instantaneous, how would someone ever use the feat before hitting the ground (barring falling incredibly long distances)?

Shouldn't the feat function as a reaction at the start of a fall or high point of a jump, then additionally allow you to spend an action on successive rounds to keep gliding?


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I think it's supposed to work as the glide a parachutist will do with those aerodynamic suits, which means that you only do that when you want to go from high ground to lower ground, which makes it very restrictive.

I do agree with you, this gliding would make more sense as something one could do as a snap reaction to falling on top of controlled descent.

Liberty's Edge

I see it as jumping from some height and then gliding. Which sounds appropriate for a 5th level feat.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
I see it as jumping from some height and then gliding. Which sounds appropriate for a 5th level feat.

CRB 463: You fall about 500 feet in the first round of falling and about 1,500 feet each round thereafter.

I imagine you're not going to encounter too many drop point opportunities that are greater than 500 feet in height.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
I see it as jumping from some height and then gliding. Which sounds appropriate for a 5th level feat.

CRB 463: You fall about 500 feet in the first round of falling and about 1,500 feet each round thereafter.

I imagine you're not going to encounter too many drop point opportunities that are greater than 500 feet in height.

I believe the jump action ends before any subsequent fall begins. So, action Jump followed by action Glide should work perfectly well. You will be gliding from the start of the fall. Not only after a first round of falling.


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You do it when you standing on a cliff or high place and the first 5ft of movement takes you off said cliff or high place. Though it does seem very weird their isn't a higher level option to use it as a reaction when falling.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's not the way it works though.

You walk off a cliff, then you fall, then you activate Glide (if you didn't go splat).

Same thing happens if you jump. Jump. Fall. Splat or Glide.

If you could spend an action BEFORE you conclude the falling results, then tbeted be no point in numerous feats and abilities like Sudden Leap or Wall Jump.

Until this feat can be errata'd or clarified, I think I'm going to rule that it takes effect automatically when falling or jumping (assuming the player wishes it to) and that the action expenditure is for successive rounds in my games.


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I think it's either an oversight ( it should have been a reaction ) or meant not to be used without preparation.

Anyway, what about the ready action?

Quote:
You prepare to use an action that will occur outside your turn. Choose a single action or free action you can use, and designate a trigger. Your turn then ends. If the trigger you designated occurs before the start of your next turn, you can use the chosen action as a reaction (provided you still meet the requirements to use it). You can’t Ready a free action that already has a trigger.

2 actions > Ready action > glide while falling

1 action > step, stride, jump, leap out of a cliff.


I gave a quick search and didn't find anything. When do you resolve the fall and take subsequent damage? On your turn if you leap off something, you could move 10 or 15 feet horizontally. If there is not a surface after those distances, you would begin to fall? So do you fall, resolve the fall and damage, and get your remaining action or can you resolve your remaining actions, then resolve falling? If you can do the latter, it seems easy enough to use the feat.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There's no Wile Coyote situation where you resolve your move or other action, then fall.

You fall precisely when the conditions for falling have been met (immediately, regardless of initiative).


AVGDamage wrote:
I gave a quick search and didn't find anything. When do you resolve the fall and take subsequent damage? On your turn if you leap off something, you could move 10 or 15 feet horizontally. If there is not a surface after those distances, you would begin to fall? So do you fall, resolve the fall and damage, and get your remaining action or can you resolve your remaining actions, then resolve falling? If you can do the latter, it seems easy enough to use the feat.

Immediately after the action. Which means that by the rules, there's not the old "I jump and then attack the enemy" used by martial characters, you either have the feat or you're land-locked and must use your ranged options. It greatly increased the value of the abilities that let a character Jump and Strike during the same activity.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lightning Raven wrote:
Immediately after the action.

Earlier than even that oftentimes.

As I indicated above, if you Stride 25 feet off a cliff 10 feet away, you don't start falling 15 feet away from the cliff, you fall after 10 feet of movement, even though you haven't completed your Stride action.


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Why do you say immediately? Is that written anywhere?

Falling says "You fall about 500 feet in the first round of falling" - emphasize on round. We know a round is defined as "A round is a period of time during an encounter in which all participants get a chance to act. A round represents approximately 6 seconds in game time." To me this indicates that falling may not be instantaneously.

Ravingdork wrote:

There's no Wile Coyote situation where you resolve your move or other action, then fall.

If we want to bring cartoon logic into this, the two extremes are, 1) as you mentioned, someone hovering midair completing whatever they want to do and then falling or 2) someone falls 500 ft (over 6 seconds) and everyone watching with bated breath hoping that they either use a reaction to grab an edge or the spell-casters cast feather fall, then the onlookers resume whatever they were doing. When in reality (dangerous for a fantasy game, I know) they are falling over a period of time while the world moves around them. So given it is not explicit written in the rules, I don't see a problem letting a Leshy use their feat during a fall when they have an action to do so. Rules are unclear and that is the most fun.

Lightning Raven wrote:


Immediately after the action. Which means that by the rules, there's not the old "I jump and then attack the enemy" used by martial characters, you either have the feat or you're land-locked and must use your ranged options. It greatly increased the value of the abilities that let a character Jump and Strike during the same activity.

I do think it is a good idea to look at the sudden leap feat or even the jump spell to try and infer what the intentions are. I concur that they lean in the direction of resolve fall first and foremost. Nevertheless, nothing is explicitly written so I think it lands in the GM fiat territory.

Though I agree that the action on this should reconsidered. The first option is the feat should be a reaction when falling or an action when already gliding. This would probably be the easiest. Or perhaps it was set to an action to specifically only to be used on the Leshy's turn and not as reaction to something outside their control.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AVGDamage wrote:
Or perhaps it was set to an action to specifically only to be used on the Leshy's turn and not as reaction to something outside their control.

So they would spend an action to "assume the position" with Leshy Glide, then jump or drop off with another action? I could see that I suppose.

Liberty's Edge

AVGDamage wrote:
Or perhaps it was set to an action to specifically only to be used on the Leshy's turn and not as reaction to something outside their control.

This is what I was trying to describe. Thanks a lot :-)

Liberty's Edge

Falling interacts strangely with the 3 actions system.

If you fall from less than 500ft after your first action, do yo still get your remaining actions for after you hit the ground ?

And if you fall 501 ft and spent your whole round falling, then where did your remaining actions go ?


Ravingdork wrote:
AVGDamage wrote:
Or perhaps it was set to an action to specifically only to be used on the Leshy's turn and not as reaction to something outside their control.
So they would spend an action to "assume the position" with Leshy Glide, then jump or drop off with another action? I could see that I suppose.

This is how I feel it should be done. It is basically two actions. I won't get picky about the order of glide/start fall or start fall/glide. One action to get off the the Leshy off its "platform" (cliff, balcony, treebranch, etc) and one to glide. Or if they want to flavor it has assuming the glide position, then stride/leap/step, fine by me.

I think in PFS, though I don't run PFS games so take it with a grain of salt, I could see expecting to do what HumbleGamer laid out

HumbleGamer wrote:


2 actions > Ready action > glide while falling
1 action > step, stride, jump, leap out of a cliff.

Basically 2 actions to use the ready activity to ready Leshy glide, then an action to move off the platform, and then the reaction to glide. I think burning 3 reactions and a reaction feels like a lot, so why at home I have no problems allowing a player to getting off the a platform and glide using 2 actions total. Though I do think I wouldn't allow it to be used as a reaction as written. As it is written to be an action, there seems to be some intentionality required. Though if a Leshy fell over 500 feet and found themselves still falling at the start of their turn, a single action to start gliding.

The Raven Black wrote:


If you fall from less than 500ft after your first action, do yo still get your remaining actions for after you hit the ground ?

And if you fall 501 ft and spent your whole round falling, then where did your remaining actions go ?

This is what I was trying to get at. I think no matter what you get your remaining actions. It is just a matter of what order you resolve the fall and remaining actions. And I'd leave it up to a GM because it isn't explicitly written anywhere. Personally I agree I wouldn't let a player hang out midair and complete their actions, then fall, but if it was something they could do while falling, I'd entertain it. Most players probably want to fall a short distance, complete the fall, and then take their reactions, and I don't have a problem with this either.

Liberty's Edge

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This feels like an oversight where 1 Action was printed in place of Reaction.

I'm having a hard time understanding the intent of the Feat otherwise, especially as a 5th level option because I highly doubt the intent of this was to only be helpful if you need to descend over 500 feet or 100 squares.


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IMHO it actually doesn't make sense if it's not an action. Perhaps I am wrong but when I read the feat I took it as obviously modeled on the Fly action. I find this especially likely given the 'if you spend at least 1 action gliding' language suggesting that, at the very least, the action symbol and the text agree what kind of action they assume this ability takes.

Leshy Glide needs to be an action so that you can choose to spend multiple actions on your turn moving through the air. It does not need to be a reaction more than the Fly action needs to be a reaction in order for your to fly from a cliff. The only area where this doesn't work as you'd expect is gliding away from an unexpected fall, in which case a fly speed doesn't allow you to do that either, and to have this feat you already have automatic benefits of Arrest a Fall (provided you fall within your Cat Fall range) so I see this as working entirely as intended (if not necessarily as expected).

Liberty's Edge

The only way to USE it as an action to initiate the Glide is to USE the Action which affects a specific amount of movement in place of the normal falling rules. Using this action while on solid ground does nothing at all.

So you'd need to move off a ledge > Fall 500 ft > Leshy Glide to move 5 ft down and 25 ft forward > Use your 3rd Action > Maybe us another Stride or Strike if you have Haste applied to you

You're right though, it's absolutely written from the perspective of using on your own turn... it's just a problem in that you're using a specific Action to get a specific effect that it itself self-enclosed to the Action and you can't even "pre-use" this Action before leaving solid ground. It's almost like it's missing some rules indicating that you can use this Action immediately as soon as you WOULD fall during your own turn provided that you have Actions remaining to spend.


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Valid, the feat action should probably have been given the move trait. To me it seems clear that you start the action standing at the edge of a cliff and simply glide as a part of that action off the cliff, moving your first 5' off the edge of that cliff, but you are technically correct.

I don't think it needs any language regarding reactions or immediate actions, perhaps only a line that clarifies that you can start the action while either clinging to a wall or cliff face (in the case of my vine leshy) or standing next to a drop of at least 5'. It doesn't feel like it should need highly mechanical terminology when what it's supposed to do (let you move horizontally 25' while only falling 5' through the air as an action) is fairly intuitive.


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the problem with the interpetation of "use it before you jump off a cliff" is the second part of the feat:

Quote:
As long as you spend at least 1 action gliding each round and have not yet reached the ground, you remain in the air at the end of your turn.

that "EACH round" seem to indicate that you can on subsequent rounds as well spent an action to continue gliding, but on subsequent rounds there's no ledge, you are already in the air.

To me it's not exactly an oversight or a typo meant to be a reaction.

they wanted you to have to spent an action each round to glide, that's much more of a cost compared to spending 1 reaction each round, and it goes hand-in-hand with the general flying rules that you spent 1 action to stay in the air each round.

So the cost IS deliberate imo, what they didn't account for was that it's finicky to use actions while in the air in the first place.

so i would treat it as "flying" in that regard:

similarly as if you have a flight speed/ability you dont immediately fall when your round begins while on the air, as long as you spent 1 action flying, the same goes if you have Gliding as well.

It does need some errata though to indicate this.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Do you technically have to be airborne to start gliding?

So long as they end up 5 ft down, and up to 25 ft. over, would anyone let a leshy start gliding from solid ground? (e.g. standing on the edge of a cliff).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Do you technically have to be airborne to start gliding?

So long as they end up 5 ft down, and up to 25 ft. over, would anyone let a leshy start gliding from solid ground? (e.g. standing on the edge of a cliff).

I suppose I would, primarily because I don't see how else it could work as written.

Liberty's Edge

I would if they use an action first to leap or step or stride. Note that the Leshy Glide action does not have the Move trait.


Note that the Ready action ends one's turn.

So I believe Sibelius has the right of it, you launch yourself over edges.
As it says in the book, abilities should work, and this seems an interpretation that works with only a minor tweak.


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The Raven Black wrote:
I would if they use an action first to leap or step or stride. Note that the Leshy Glide action does not have the Move trait.

Yeah, going by the text I'd say it is an alternate form of movement action - like Stride, Burrow or Fly. You could stand at the edge of a cliff and the use Glide as your movement going 25ft forward and 5ft down. It even has a similar one-action-per-round-to-continue rule as Fly.

It is just missing the Move trait like all other forms of movement. Maybe an oversight, maybe it is designed like this so it doesn't trigger reactions...

But I'd treat it as a movement basic action like the others. Maybe houserule it to have the Move trait. That way it is usable and similar in usage to Fly.

Horizon Hunters

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Today I had these same questions about Glide Action in general (Glider Form, Leshy Glide, Iruxi Glide etc). One of the alternatives I came up with was to use the rule from the Gamemastery Guide book: Splitting and Combining Movement. Taking a stride/leap action (move trait) off a cliff + Glide Action (Another Move trait).Combining these two moves into a two-action activity.

The only problem with this is that while all feats have the same description, only Glider Form has a Move Trait according to Archives of Nethys. But I wouldn't say it's a big problem, it would just need an errata adding Move trait.

source:
How It's Played.
Splitting and Combining Movement.

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