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Hi everyone, with flanking I know it has to pass from the center of each character through 2 opposite sides or the diagonal but does it have to pass through the center of the opponents square as well?
Is this image correct for flanking a large creature with the green lines being flanking and the red not?
https://i.imgur.com/1bHF4Za.jpegWhen flanking a large creature but PC F in this case has a reach weapon would they be considered flanking with PC B and PC D?
https://i.imgur.com/nFeewL5.jpegThanks for any help!
Player Core pg. 425 2.0 When you and an ally are flanking a foe, it has a harder time defending against you. A creature is off-guard (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to melee attacks from creatures that are flanking it.Source
To flank a foe, you and your ally must be on opposite sides of the creature. A line drawn between the center of your space and the center of your ally's space must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the foe's space. Additionally, both you and the ally have to be able to act, you must be wielding melee weapons or be able to make an unarmed attack, you can't be under any effects that prevent you from attacking, and you must both have the enemy within reach. If you are wielding a reach weapon, you use your reach with that weapon for this purpose.
The 'line' does not have to pass through the center of the target's space: All the green lines in your example are flanking, while all the red lines are not. All the Orange lines are flanking as well assuming 'f' has a reach weapon.
Seconded.
No need to add requirements to flanking that aren't there. Opposite sides or opposite corners are all that is needed.
⬛ = Solid Wall
⬜ = Grid Space
Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️ = Large Monster Space
⭕ = Flanking Character
⚫ = Non-flanking Character
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛⬜⭕⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⭕Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬛⬜⭕Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️ ️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⭕⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⭕⬜⬛⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️ ️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜⬜⚫⭕⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⚫⬜⬛⬜⭕⭕⭕⭕⬜
⬜⚫Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬛⬜⭕Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️ ️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⭕⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬛⬜⭕Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️ ️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⭕⬜
⬜⬜⬜⚫⬜⬜⬛⬜⭕⭕⭕⭕⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
Hope that helps!
Foundry does this weird thing with its flanking detection. Aside from its flanking ignoring altitude.
Let's say you have a Medium creature sandwiched between two Large creatures. The line between the two Large guys' centers completely overlaps the northern side of the Medium guy, including both corners adjacent to that side. Obviously, the flanking line does not go through opposite corners.
But Foundry doesn't care. As far as it's concerned, those corners are part of the west and east sides, so the line is still going through opposite sides and it counts as flanking.
So if the line did go through opposite corners, would it also be going through all four sides?
Also, wouldn't the line be tangential to the opposite sides instead of going through them?
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Why are you wanting to use mathematically ideal lines and squares for a creature's location? Especially since you are aware that doing so causes strange edge cases in the rules.
Why not instead use a 'line' like a pencil line, that has some width to it and maybe isn't perfectly straight, to draw both the creature's bounding square and the flanking test line. Then you don't need to worry about cases like if two size Large creatures are on opposite sides of a size Medium creature and having to decide if the center-to-center line for testing flanking goes through the opposite sides of the creature in the middle, or if it only goes through the corners and tangent to its one side.
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜⭕⬜⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
A loophole in the rules is only meaningful if it is causing problems generally. If the loophole only exists if you use a very specific and obscure interpretation of the words, then it isn't really a problem. If you want a RAW answer for those types of cases, I recommend the Ambiguous Rules rule.
We have to assume the line is straight because that's the whole point of using lines.
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Mathematics aside, it should be flanking because otherwise two large creatures could only flank medium (or smaller) creatures diagonally, and that's stupid.
You're literally sandwiched between them, you're flanked.
We have to assume the line is straight because that's the whole point of using lines.
We don't have to assume that the lines are perfectly straight or that they are zero width.
We are allowed to use rational thinking to adjudicate the rules and make the game work better.
Mathematics aside, it should be flanking because otherwise two large creatures could only flank medium (or smaller) creatures diagonally, and that's stupid.
You mean like this?
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
We are allowed to use rational thinking to adjudicate the rules and make the game work better.
Is it better? Let's add another Medium creature to that example.
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜⭕⭕⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
Now let's make the enemies Huge and add another Medium creature.
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜⭕⭕⭕⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
If the flanking line touching the opposing sides is enough, the Large creatures are flanking two Medium creatures but the Huge creatures are only flanking one. The Huge creatures are having a harder time flanking purely because the center of their space is not a corner on the grid.
Mathematics aside, it should be flanking because otherwise two large creatures could only flank medium (or smaller) creatures diagonally, and that's stupid.You mean like this?
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
That would work, or also this:
Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜
Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️
But as I said, I think only allowing those two is dumb. And as you point out, it gets worse the bigger a creature gets.
Mathematics aside, it should be flanking because otherwise two large creatures could only flank medium (or smaller) creatures diagonally, and that's stupid.You mean like this?
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜That would work, or also this:
Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜
Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️But as I said, I think only allowing those two is dumb. And as you point out, it gets worse the bigger a creature gets.
There's also only two formations that can be used by Medium creatures to flank Medium creatures: orthogonal and diagonal. There's nothing stupid about that. And as I already stated, the Huge creatures would be struggling in the Foundry interpretation not because they are bigger but because their centers are corners of squares instead of centers of squares. Gargantuan creatures with 4x4 spaces would not be struggling in the same way.
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You can run the game how you like as long as you can agree with the other players at your table.
You don't need to agree with me.
It just sounds really strange to tell the two large creatures in this scenario:
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜⭕⬜⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜
that they don't get flanking bonus because the lines between the centers of their squares miss the opposite sides of the enemy's space by zero micrometers.