Scatterguns / Shotguns as area weapons


Playtest General Discussion


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The Starfinder 2E playtest has scatterguns implemented as area weapons, meaning that they cannot be used to make ranged Strike attacks, only as a double-action attack activity to inflict damage against all enemies in a cone. All 3 of the scattergun variants in the playtest are limited to 15ft range and have the unwieldy trait, meaning that they cannot be fired more than once in a turn and cannot be used to make reaction attacks (e.g. with Hair Trigger).

A few guesses as to why they work this way:
A cone effect of damage is an understandable thought when considering how to model buckshot and other spread-fire weaponry. I believe the intent here is to make shotgun-type weapons into an effective response to being crowded by melee-oriented enemies. It is capable of hitting multiple targets close in, and is good in the hands of the Soldier class, who is specifically oriented towards using area effect and automatic weapons. Conversely, its area-attack design is less useful to characters good at making accurate ranged strikes, such as the Operative. I am assuming that the "unwieldy" trait is in place to prevent multiple cone-area attacks being made in one round.

Criticisms of this implementation:
I respectfully disagree with this as a way to model shotgun-type weapons. The 15ft range increment might be reasonable on a weapon which could make ranged Strikes but becomes reliable at mid-range, but area weapons cannot fire beyond the first range increment, making scatterguns bafflingly incapable of hitting a target 20ft away with no cover or concealment. Additionally, the fact that area weapons take two actions to fire, limits the wielder's ability to dash forwards into an optimal firing position, further exacerbating the range issue.
In addition to the mechanical difficulties of this implementation, I also find this implementation of scatterguns to be at odds with player verisimilitude. It doesn't feel believable that shotguns are so slow and difficult to aim that they take two actions to fire, can't harm anything 20ft away, and can't be used for reactions; I would go so far as to say this is almost the opposite of how shotguns are used in actual IRL firefights. I recognise that this point is a matter of opinion, but I do think it is important to keep player expectations in mind when designing the weaponry.

Alternative implementations / fixes:
How instead should scatterguns be implemented? I would welcome some community opinions on this, as I know that in PF2's "Guns & Gears" book there were similar weapons which could make Strikes and dealt splash damage to nearby targets. Whilst this certainly had its problems (friendly fire and self-damage, in particular), I cannot help but feel that some variation on this would be both easier for players to understand and more useful to weapon-using characters in general. What do people think? How would you implement shotgun-type weapons?


A single shotgun shell having a spread of 90 degrees is also frankly a little ludicrous.

Frankly? I like the way Pathfinder did it, but what I didn't like about it, is I still feel it should be a cone.

So here is what I was thinking. But I feel it might be too complicated. What if you could pick an area a set distance from the user. Say, 10-20, or 15 feet away. Then you can make a limited cone that's drawn from your characters to the points of that area. And all characters within that narrower cone would be affected. Maybe the tradeoff that the cone is much narrower can make it reduced to 1 action.

Basically a partial cone that's wider than a line.


Quote:
Additionally, the fact that area weapons take two actions to fire, limits the wielder's ability to dash forwards into an optimal firing position, further exacerbating the range issue.

That has been a tradeoff for spellcasters using 15 foot cone spells like Burning Hands/Breathe Fire, Color Spray/Dizzying Colors, etc for a long time.


Finoan wrote:
Quote:
Additionally, the fact that area weapons take two actions to fire, limits the wielder's ability to dash forwards into an optimal firing position, further exacerbating the range issue.
That has been a tradeoff for spellcasters using 15 foot cone spells like Burning Hands/Breathe Fire, Color Spray/Dizzying Colors, etc for a long time.

Of course spells work differently from weapons in numerous ways. Spellcasters usually know multiple spells, don't have to pay to upgrade all of their spells separately, and can choose which spell to cast without having to spend an action switching between them. A caster caught with no enemies in reach of a 15' cone just casts something else. A martial likely won't bother equipping such a weapon at all. Just keep shooting the stellar cannon.


Stellar Cannon is awesome but only 50ft range on it sometimes is dangerous. I don't see why it can't be fired into the second range increment with a -2 to the Basic Reflex DC or something personally.


One suggestion I saw (on Reddit I think?) with respect to the "Scatter" trait from PF2 Guns & Gears, was to make it so that it only dealt splash damage if the target was further away from you, than the radius of the Scatter trait. If they were closer, it would instead deal double the amount of extra damage from splash, but only to the target.

So, if you fire a Blunderbuss (scatter 10ft) at a target 20ft away, the main target takes full damage and everyone within 10ft of them takes splash damage equal to number of damage dice. But if you hit a target from 5 or 10ft away with the same gun, the target (and only the target) takes double the number of damage die in additional damage, with no splashing to secondary targets.

Personally I like this more than the current implementation of scatterguns as cone area weapons. It encourages you to get close, whilst also still leaving the option to shoot at targets further away, and thus limits the "optimal" use of shotguns to their expected niche. It also avoids treading on the design space of actual cone spell effects, like burning hands / breathe fire.


In my playtests, AoE weapons worked much better as regular guns with the scatter trait or other forms of splash damage than in their current implementation. Right now, AoE guns are too action-intensive and their damage is too low to work reliably on most characters, plus they break a lot of interactions with weapons, so it doesn’t generally feel great using them. Having a gun not function as an actual gun in the case of a shotgun also just registers as awkward to me, and making the scattergun a gun that dealt splash damage in a short-ranged cone instead had it work a lot better.

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