Guardian Save Progression

[LostDeep]

So, I've been mapping out the proficiency progression for all the classes, and I noticed something that needs to be, in my opinion, directly discussed: Guardian's Saves are dissappointing.

Let's start with Ranger as a baseline:
Fortitude: Expert at 1, Master at 11
Reflex: Expert at 1, Master at 7, Legendary at 15
Will: Trained at 1, Expert at 3

This clearly gives Ranger a very strong Reflex save, and a distinct weakness in Will. Okay.

Guardian:
Fortitude: Expert at 1, Master at 9
Reflex: Trained at 1, Expert at 5
Will: Expert at 1, Master at 15

Wait a second, Guardian, the dedicated tanking class, has no Legendary saves at all? Not even at level 19?

It's best save (Fortitude) progresses slower than Ranger's (Reflex). It's middle save (Will) progresses slower than Ranger's (Fortitude). It's worst save, Reflex, progresses slower than Ranger's Will!

Of course, of course, Guardian has Guardian Mastery, which allows it to use its armor bonus to AC instead of Dex, which is good. Except that Guardian Mastery comes online at level 19, so you spend 90% of your progression on poor Reflex scaling and using Dex for your save.

Maybe that comparison is skewed, Let's compare instead to a frontline heavy armor class, Fighter. Guardian and Fighter have very close save profiles, he Good and Mid saves are the same. But, fighter's weak Save, Will, progresses at level 3 with its bonus vs fear immediately.

But Guardian actively wants to be targeted by the enemy, maybe even using Taunt to increase save difficulty. Fighter can take damage comfortably, but it isn't its first duty; it's a solid frontliner with excellent damage. This is not the save profile of something with saving throws as a strength!

I haven't had an opportunity to playtest Guardian, but this is in line with others' observations about guardian: Guardian has trouble with saves, especially reflex, double especially when taunting. If Guardian is supposed to be the tankingest class in Pathfinder 2... why doesn't it have at the very least fighter-level saves?

If I had to pick one single worst thing about this situation, it would have to be that Guardian Mastery's Reflex Save bonus is really cool and should definitely be in the class, but as a core part of the class. As a capstone it's little more than a crown. Move the armor modifier to Reflex down, I think it's reasonable at level 5, or 7, or 9; anything is better than it currently is. The success to crit success effect can go with it, come in later, stay at 19, or even fall off the face of the class entirely.

I would like to hear from people who have playtested Guardian: How bad is the save situation, really? Are the numbers lying? Is armor to Reflex Bonus really that powerful? Has anyone actually played a guardian at level 19?

[Mellored]

I expect most players will have Bulwark to help a bit.

But it's still behind. Yes.

[Iron_Matt17]

I’d compare it to the Champion (again). Champion’s don’t get Expert Reflexes until level 9(!), and that’s all they get. While the Guardian, gets Expert Reflexes at lvl 5 then Guardian Mastery at level 19. They also get access to Shielded Reflex & Mighty Bulwark baked into the class… I find that they have lots of options, especially compared to the Champion. (In fact for my Champion, I always get Canny Acumen for my Reflex Saves at Level 3 due to the obvious weak point)

[LostDeep]

Iron_Matt17 wrote:

I’d compare it to the Champion (again). Champion’s don’t get Expert Reflexes until level 9(!), and that’s all they get. While the Guardian, gets Expert Reflexes at lvl 5 then Guardian Mastery at level 19. They also get access to Shielded Reflex & Mighty Bulwark baked into the class… I find that they have lots of options, especially compared to the Champion. (In fact for my Champion, I always get Canny Acumen for my Reflex Saves at Level 3 due to the obvious weak point)

This is true, but Champions also have better Will progression, so overall I think it's a sidegrade. From there we'd have to get into the nitty gritty of class feature comparison, which is far less cut-and-dry though my bias is to give it to the champion as the Champion's Reactions are all great.

That said, I didn't want to compare it to Champion at the moment because Player Core 2 is still coming, and there's always a nonzero chance that some numbers will move in that.

[Iron_Matt17]

LostDeep wrote:

Iron_Matt17 wrote:

I’d compare it to the Champion (again). Champion’s don’t get Expert Reflexes until level 9(!), and that’s all they get. While the Guardian, gets Expert Reflexes at lvl 5 then Guardian Mastery at level 19. They also get access to Shielded Reflex & Mighty Bulwark baked into the class… I find that they have lots of options, especially compared to the Champion. (In fact for my Champion, I always get Canny Acumen for my Reflex Saves at Level 3 due to the obvious weak point)

This is true, but Champions also have better Will progression, so overall I think it's a sidegrade. From there we'd have to get into the nitty gritty of class feature comparison, which is far less cut-and-dry though my bias is to give it to the champion as the Champion's Reactions are all great.

That said, I didn't want to compare it to Champion at the moment because Player Core 2 is still coming, and there's always a nonzero chance that some numbers will move in that.

Oh, I very much prefer Champion over the Guardian, and don’t mind sinking a General Feat to give him Expert 6 levels prior to the base chassis and then Master at level 17. And fair enough, we’ll wait and see if they change anything for the Champion.

I haven’t played the Guardian at high levels yet, (which I’m planning on doing later) but so far I haven’t found any problems with its Reflex Saves. But then again they typically have Bulwark, and Mighty Bulwark works great to shore up that lack. (Reflex Saves are the second highest Save for my lvl 10 Guardian with 0 Dex and Mighty Bulwark) If you moved the Armour mod down to lower levels, I’d expect that to be too strong…

[Teridax]

While there's lots of criticisms to be made of the Guardian, I don't really agree that their save progression is bad. Saves progressing at 3rd level are uncommon, and the standard is for them to progress only later, so I don't think that should be the standard for the Guardian's saves. Additionally, I don't think it makes sense to ask for a legendary save when the class already has legendary AC.

Rather than the Ranger, let's compare the Guardian's save and Perception progression to the Champion and the Fighter, in my opinion the class's two closest analogues:

Fort Master at 9 for all three classes. Pretty standard.

Ref Expert then pseudo-master at 5/19 for the Guardian, versus expert at 9 for the Champion and master at 15 for the Fighter. A little worse than the Fighter, but much better than the Champion.

Will Master at 15 for the Guardian, versus master at 11 for the Champion and expert at 3 for the Fighter. Somewhat worse than the Champion, but better than the Fighter.

Perception Expert at 7 for the Guardian, versus expert at 11 for the Champion and master at 7 for the Fighter. Straight-up worse than the Fighter, but somewhat better than the Champion.

So all things considered, the Guardian has similar overall save progression compared to the Champion and Fighter, with the added bonus of being better at saves overall thanks to Guardian Mastery boosting their weakest save. With this in mind, I don't think their greatest need is for more or earlier proficiency bumps.

[LostDeep]

Teridax wrote:

While there's lots of criticisms to be made of the Guardian, I don't really agree that their save progression is bad. Saves progressing at 3rd level are uncommon, and the standard is for them to progress only later, so I don't think that should be the standard for the Guardian's saves. Additionally, I don't think it makes sense to ask for a legendary save when the class already has legendary AC.

Rather than the Ranger, let's compare the Guardian's save and Perception progression to the Champion and the Fighter, in my opinion the class's two closest analogues:

Fort Master at 9 for all three classes. Pretty standard.

Ref Expert then pseudo-master at 5/19 for the Guardian, versus expert at 9 for the Champion and master at 15 for the Fighter. A little worse than the Fighter, but much better than the Champion.

Will Master at 15 for the Guardian, versus master at 11 for the Champion and expert at 3 for the Fighter. Somewhat worse than the Champion, but better than the Fighter.

Perception Expert at 7 for the Guardian, versus expert at 11 for the Champion and master at 7 for the Fighter. Straight-up worse than the Fighter, but somewhat better than the Champion.

So all things considered, the Guardian has similar overall save progression compared to the Champion and Fighter, with the added bonus of being better at saves overall thanks to Guardian Mastery boosting their weakest save. With this in mind, I don't think their greatest need is for more or earlier proficiency bumps.

Good points, and I respect that. That said, this save profile is only acceptable if Taunt isn't active.

I don't want to get deep into Taunt Talk, but working at a -2 to saves is devastating. My argument is that the save profile was not built with the Guardian's role and class abilities in mind. As the guardian you want to be attacked first, you want to be the first target for everything. This is not a save profile that supports that.

Now, if the save penalty is removed from Taunt, this save profile goes back to being just fine.

That said, I still think that the save bonus part of Guardian Mastery needs to move a little earlier. Most games don't even get to level 19! Level 13, maybe? Still on the upside but a lot of games will get there.

[Teridax]

LostDeep wrote:

Good points, and I respect that. That said, this save profile is only acceptable if Taunt isn't active.

I don't want to get deep into Taunt Talk, but working at a -2 to saves is devastating. My argument is that the save profile was not built with the Guardian's role and class abilities in mind. As the guardian you want to be attacked first, you want to be the first target for everything. This is not a save profile that supports that.

I agree with this completely, and this to me is a major reason why I think Taunt shouldn't give a circumstance bonus against the Guardian. Not only do you become deceptively squishier across the board when you Taunt, at level 1 in particular you end up with worse defenses than a Wizard. It is therefore no surprise that the class in my opinion feels extremely weak at level 1 and doesn't want to use their core abilities too often at those very early levels. I don't think this should mean giving the Guardian better saves, but I do think this ought to lead to an improved Taunt that doesn't trash the Guardian's defenses.

[Gortle]

Mellored wrote:

I expect most players will have Bulwark to help a bit.

But it's still behind. Yes.

Bulwark is an option that is gettable for any class. Yes Guardian has it faster. But still for a defensive class I don't see why that would justify poor saves = not that Guardian is that bad.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Mighty Bulwark just makes it so you can ignore DEX bonuses. +4 is pretty decent to reflex saves and not like you'd want to use the DEX skilsl anyways since the class barely supports DEX. You can 100% make a STR, CON, WIS Guardian but I still think CON would make a good KAS for Guardian over STR, sure you'd get Heavy armor later but more CON related bonuses which I think can help the class survive.

As for saves you shouldn't really look at level 19 stuff, most games ends around I want to say 12 which makes a lot of the high end feats not seen/used in active play because D20 systems like 5E/PF1/PF2 happen t o be rocket tag like at higher levels still.

[Bluemagetim]

LostDeep wrote:

So, I've been mapping out the proficiency progression for all the classes, and I noticed something that needs to be, in my opinion, directly discussed: Guardian's Saves are dissappointing.

Let's start with Ranger as a baseline:
Fortitude: Expert at 1, Master at 11
Reflex: Expert at 1, Master at 7, Legendary at 15
Will: Trained at 1, Expert at 3

This clearly gives Ranger a very strong Reflex save, and a distinct weakness in Will. Okay.

Guardian:
Fortitude: Expert at 1, Master at 9
Reflex: Trained at 1, Expert at 5
Will: Expert at 1, Master at 15

Wait a second, Guardian, the dedicated tanking class, has no Legendary saves at all? Not even at level 19?

It's best save (Fortitude) progresses slower than Ranger's (Reflex). It's middle save (Will) progresses slower than Ranger's (Fortitude). It's worst save, Reflex, progresses slower than Ranger's Will!

Of course, of course, Guardian has Guardian Mastery, which allows it to use its armor bonus to AC instead of Dex, which is good. Except that Guardian Mastery comes online at level 19, so you spend 90% of your progression on poor Reflex scaling and using Dex for your save.

Maybe that comparison is skewed, Let's compare instead to a frontline heavy armor class, Fighter. Guardian and Fighter have very close save profiles, he Good and Mid saves are the same. But, fighter's weak Save, Will, progresses at level 3 with its bonus vs fear immediately.

But Guardian actively wants to be targeted by the enemy, maybe even using Taunt to increase save difficulty. Fighter can take damage comfortably, but it isn't its first duty; it's a solid frontliner with excellent damage. This is not the save profile of something with saving throws as a strength!

I haven't had an opportunity to playtest Guardian, but this is in line with others' observations about guardian: Guardian has trouble with saves, especially reflex, double especially when taunting. If Guardian is supposed to be the tankingest class in Pathfinder 2... why doesn't it have at the...

I did this for myself as well. I mapped by how many levels a class spends at each proficiency. i have individual class tabs for comparing within class for each proficiency and a few across classes by 1 type of proficiency. Go to Charts posted here.

[LuniasM]

Fortitude
- L1 Expert > L9 Master is the same progression as the Champion and Fighter, and is actually a pretty early upgrade compared to many other classes such as Warpriest Clerics, Gunslingers, Inventors, Magus, and Thaumaturge.

Reflex
- L1 Trained > L5 Expert is actually not slow at all - it's the second-fastest progression for classes with a bad Reflex save.
- Furthermore, Guardians have access to multiple feats to help overcome their weak save such as Mighty Bulwark and Reflexive Shield. If anything, they've got a much easier time dealing with their bad save than other classes.

Will
- L1 Expert > L15 Master is the second-slowest progression among classes that start at Expert, which certainly isn't great... but there's a catch.
- Most classes that get faster proficiency scaling are also too reliant on multiple other ability scores to invest in Wisdom. Casters like the Bard, Oracle, and Psychic, as well as martials like the Inventor, Investigator, and Thaumaturge can't really afford to invest in Wisdom without losing effectiveness elsewhere. Meanwhile, the Guardian really only needs Strength and Constitution to be effective, so they can afford to make up for their slower proficiency by investing in Wisdom.

All said and done, their saves really aren't bad. I wouldn't say they're especially good, but they're certainly not weak. In fact, I'm about to play in a Level 8 playtest today and my guardian actually has the best saves across the entire party. Only the Kineticist even comes close, and she's got a low save at +13 while my worst saves are both at +15. Guardian might not have any particularly notable high saves, but I'd hesitate to call them weak in that area.