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I've been thinking that it might actually be possible to be too good at your job as a Guardian. Once you have all or most of the agro, that's not actually an ideal position most of the time, especially if you have any taunts active. Damage is typically better spread out amongst similarly armored party members than focused onto just one. I'm not certain about the math or tactics but that seems to be the case.
To help with this, I think guardian aught to have more ways to mitigate damage to themselves once they have agro. One way could be to gain the resistance from intercept strike against the first strike of a taunted foe as a reaction. Possibly have certain special actions or buffs that can be used when you have 2 or more adjacent enemies. Stuff like that. Thoughts?
It feels like the danger of going down is very real for the Guardian. Makes me wonder why it isn't a 12 HP class when taking damage is its primary purpose.
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Also look at a 1st level Guardian trying to live the dream of being an actual tank in heavy armor. My Orc (Hold Scarred for the 12 HP) Guardian bought Splint Mail. That left her with exactly 2 gp. She bought a fairly pointless Wooden Shield and a Warhammer. For 1 gp each. She has no rations. No rope. Not even a secondary weapon. But she. Is. A. tank.
Ridiculous.
Sure, I could buy a "Breastplate" (worst name for a suit of armor that also isn't a suit of armor) instead but I'm going for the seminal "tank" idea. Also, I now have a movement speed of exactly 20 ft. So there's no real way to actually get to defend anyone if they move at any sort of reasonable speed. This is atrocious.
Like I said elsewhere, Guardians should totally have a reduction in move speed penalty and check penalty in heavy armor as a Baseline of the Guardian Armor Class Feature. (Even though Strength likely overcomes some/most of the penalties)
Someone else also pointed out Inventors with the Armor innovation start with armor for free. Guardian's could start with their "Guardian Armor".
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Let's consider this scenario: if a bunch of enemies are attacking you and you're not Taunting or anything, you can already reduce the damage of those attacks by 2 thanks to armor specialization at level 1. As far as damage mitigation goes, that's pretty good for that level, so while you wouldn't be able to last forever, you'd still be able to soak some regular hits. At higher levels, legendary AC and greater armor specialization means you could be reducing what damage you take by as much as 8 a pop, again without counting feats and other effects. This is also without counting damage you can mitigate by Raising your Shield and Shield Blocking, so all in all, the Guardian's base stats let them tank pretty well. The question is: what do you do as a Guardian when this happens?
To be clear, the above is a best-case scenario for the Guardian. Intercept Strike and Taunt are both things you don't want to use unless it's absolutely necessary, because it will nearly always be better for an enemy to simply attack you of their own volition than to have damage bypass your AC or trash your own defenses. Trouble is, when you're not Intercepting Damage or Taunting, you're left with some pretty bog-standard actions: your Strikes are going to be mediocre, particularly as Ferocious Vengeance requires you to taunt, and there's only a handful of feats across the Guardian's entire selection that will let you do anything above bog-standard with Strikes and Athletics actions (and some, like Armor Break, are garbage).
And this I think is one of the Guardian's biggest problems right now: when they're not trashing or bypassing their own defenses, they could be the best class in the game at taking all of the enemy's aggro at once, but when that happens, they find themselves with not much to do at all. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather take out a lot of that soaking capability if it meant the Guardian could actually do more things besides try to redirect enemies into making their gameplay as passive as possible.
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Hmm. And as you mention or someone else did HERE:
"Armor Specialization at 1st level seems like it doesn't do too much, as it is very hard to afford the Heavy armors at 1st level with the standard 15 gp you receive at the start of the game. This means you get resistance 1 to one type of physical damage, or 4 resistance against a critical hit.
Additionally, resistances don't stack, as the playtest PDF reminds you, so the 1 resistance damage for Composite/Leather/Plate armors don't stack with your Intercept Strike. Composite only activates on a Critical Hit, so it will grant only 1 more resistance to damage against the hit than Intercept Strike would have."
So at that early stage, when I don't have Expert Armor Training I'm likely better off buying a Breastplate and a Steel Shield. 1 AC less, but better movement and way more HP on my shield which I'll likely be using with Shield Block and Reactive Shield. It is very annoying that the class is described as a heavy armor defender, but at 1st level (at least, if not later too) you are actually shunted into being the "medium armor damage sponge". And heavily reliant on shields.
But yes, I can't really do much else other than Taunt just to have something to do.
I really hoped to see a two handed Guardian that could keep foes at bay with a Reach weapon. I mentioned in the speculation thread something like a melee version of the Starfinder 2 Playtest's Soldier's suppression schtick. Any weapon with a good damage die requires two hands, so the shield thing is annoying.
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Personally if armor specialization is supposed to be a big part of the reason guardian is supposed to be so tough, I would rather it changed to a different defensive tool. It's not reliable - nice when it happens but otherwise a nothingburger. Another part is that so many enemies have multiple damage types, like a bite and a claw, and if one dealt less damage I think it would be silly for them to not switch to their other option.
Also look at a 1st level Guardian trying to live the dream of being an actual tank in heavy armor. My Orc (Hold Scarred for the 12 HP) Guardian bought Splint Mail. That left her with exactly 2 gp. She bought a fairly pointless Wooden Shield and a Warhammer. For 1 gp each. She has no rations. No rope. Not even a secondary weapon. But she. Is. A. tank.
Ridiculous.
Sure, I could buy a "Breastplate" (worst name for a suit of armor that also isn't a suit of armor) instead but I'm going for the seminal "tank" idea. Also, I now have a movement speed of exactly 20 ft. So there's no real way to actually get to defend anyone if they move at any sort of reasonable speed. This is atrocious.
Like I said elsewhere, Guardians should totally have a reduction in move speed penalty and check penalty in heavy armor as a Baseline of the Guardian Armor Class Feature. (Even though Strength likely overcomes some/most of the penalties)
Someone else also pointed out Inventors with the Armor innovation start with armor for free. Guardian's could start with their "Guardian Armor".
A stopgap solution for PFS playtests my Local VC pointed out was using natural weapons (and/or armor, if you have a character with a suitable ancestry boon) to help level 1 guardians save gold. It's also helpful for commanders who want medium armor and a healer's kit.
Personally if armor specialization is supposed to be a big part of the reason guardian is supposed to be so tough, I would rather it changed to a different defensive tool. It's not reliable - nice when it happens but otherwise a nothingburger. Another part is that so many enemies have multiple damage types, like a bite and a claw, and if one dealt less damage I think it would be silly for them to not switch to their other option.
After looking at their chassis comparing how they take a hit that got through their defenses they are 1 tougher against 1 damage type at level 1. Thats not really much.
A stopgap solution for PFS playtests my Local VC pointed out was using natural weapons (and/or armor, if you have a character with a suitable ancestry boon) to help level 1 guardians save gold. It's also helpful for commanders who want medium armor and a healer's kit.
I don’t think having a bite attack ir similar is going to make me feel very…protective. Also, not every Ancestry has a natural attack; those I have played that dod have them I barely if ever used them on.
I don’t know what an ancestry boon is. Is that a PFS thing?
I mean I get it, it is a stop-gap. But a class shouldn’t need a stop-gap at level 1 to be…well not “functional” but at least “fulfilling the premise” of the theme of the class.
It seems like the most common 1st level Guardian will be a medium armored mobile defender. Not a tank. Sure. At level 2. I can be a tank.
A stopgap solution for PFS playtests my Local VC pointed out was using natural weapons (and/or armor, if you have a character with a suitable ancestry boon) to help level 1 guardians save gold. It's also helpful for commanders who want medium armor and a healer's kit.I don’t think having a bite attack ir similar is going to make me feel very…protective. Also, not every Ancestry has a natural attack; those I have played that dod have them I barely if ever used them on.
I don’t know what an ancestry boon is. Is that a PFS thing?
I mean I get it, it is a stop-gap. But a class shouldn’t need a stop-gap at level 1 to be…well not “functional” but at least “fulfilling the premise” of the theme of the class.
It seems like the most common 1st level Guardian will be a medium armored mobile defender. Not a tank. Sure. At level 2. I can be a tank.
This was specifically in the context of making the best of the situation in PFS games, sorry. In home playtests, I think GMs are better off just giving playtest guardians better armor asap.
Giving guardians a discount on heavy armor in character creation is a good idea for the final release.
As for biting, it might not be for everyone, but I love the idea of a belligerent razortooth goblin in oversized biting everyone who tries to hurt his friends and throwing himself in front of blows.
Re: Ancestry Boons: Boons are how Paizo handles access to uncommon and rare items in society. All of the ancestries with built in armor require a boon.
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Guardians are worse then champions at taking damage, shield ally plus extra block reaction is far better then anything guardian has.
The ranged taunt and run is by far the best way to play because you can't take hits properly to use your abilities.
Easy fix would be to get temp HP every round or every time you lose HP.
It needs something to survive taking all the damage it wants to suck up.