I picked up Acid Grip (the remaster replacement for Acid Arrow) under the assumption that I could move the target straight up to cause a damaging fall and knock the target prone. But I just learned that forced movement isn't so easy.
Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you're pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can't put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there's doubt on where forced movement can move a creature.
For Acid Grip to lift people off the ground to set up a damaging fall, it should generally be pushing or pulling the victim to the location. Is the forced movement caused by Acid Grip pushing/pulling? Does pushing need to be away from me? Does pulling need to be toward me? Should I be looking for the words "push" or "pull"? How do I spot forced movement that generally does or does not qualify?
First, I am not aware of any key words to indicate that a particular 'move target' ability qualifies as push or pull to be able to cause the target to move into a hazardous location. The game rules aren't written that precisely. Ask your GM.
Second, your proposed tactic is going to run into a different problem with forced movement.
If forced movement would move you into a space you can't occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.
Unless the target has a fly speed, you can't push them into the air. Certainly not high enough that they will take fall damage afterwards.
But I also can see someone saying that this acid hand is not that strong, that's not RAI, and using general formal rules.
I can understand that. The spell does acid damage, persistent acid damage, -10 status to speed as long as the persistent damage lasts, and forced movement. Extra bludgeoning and prone may be a bit much, but I'm not familiar with enough 2nd rank spells to know what's too powerful.
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If it doesn’t say “push” or “pull” it’s not doing those and you’re protected from the forced movement.
See several Kineticist abilities that are a push: air blast critical, three different water impulses (e.g. Tidal Hands crit fail), Steam Knight. See also other Kineticist abilities that are not a push, like Rising Hurricane (that one does do falling damage, but the 5’ movement couldn’t be into hazardous terrain).
Generally do a Nethys search for push or pushed and spell or infusion to find ways to do this. There are many, although they may require crits or high level/rank. They also tend to be fairly short range and of course unidirectional. Other effects that move enemies around more freely and greater distances won’t be pushes.
All of this is entirely appropriate. One of my favorite high level combos is Prismatic Wall plus a quickened push effect. Bye!
I’m aware of very few pull effects.
Second, your proposed tactic is going to run into a different problem with forced movement.
If forced movement would move you into a space you can't occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.Unless the target has a fly speed, you can't push them into the air. Certainly not high enough that they will take fall damage afterwards.
I was rightly criticized in another thread for using a lack of Burrow Speed to justify why a Burrowing Creature that Swallowed Whole a PC couldn't auto-kill them by simply Burrowing away without leaving a tunnel. And come to think of it, it is a weirdly written rule. Forced movement doesn't rely on your Speed, yet it suddenly matters for determining where you can be moved?
Perhaps it's just meant for stuff like Leading Dance (I learned about that recently), where the target is walking with you, but it's technically forced movement.
It doesn't make sense to use a lack of a Fly Speed to say why a target can't move through the air. It's like saying a worm can't be carried away by a bird because worms can't fly.
If it doesn’t say “push” or “pull” it’s not doing those and you’re protected from the forced movement.
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I’m aware of very few pull effects.
Monster Core actually just added one. There is a creature ability called Pull, but I seem to recall that it's just a MAP-less Reposition that must move the target in a straight line closer to you. So would a normal Reposition that does that (or doesn't) also suffice? Reposition doesn't have the word "pull." But I don't think it's weird for someone to cling to a ledge like Sam Fisher and Reposition someone to their doom.
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Second, your proposed tactic is going to run into a different problem with forced movement.
If forced movement would move you into a space you can't occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.Unless the target has a fly speed, you can't push them into the air. Certainly not high enough that they will take fall damage afterwards.I was rightly criticized in another thread for using a lack of Burrow Speed to justify why a Burrowing Creature that Swallowed Whole a PC couldn't auto-kill them by simply Burrowing away without leaving a tunnel. And come to think of it, it is a weirdly written rule. Forced movement doesn't rely on your Speed, yet it suddenly matters for determining where you can be moved?
Perhaps it's just meant for stuff like Leading Dance (I learned about that recently), where the target is walking with you, but it's technically forced movement.
It doesn't make sense to use a lack of a Fly Speed to say why a target can't move through the air. It's like saying a worm can't be carried away by a bird because worms can't fly.
The difference in all the examples (burrowing creature with somebody inside, bird carrying off a worm, horned dragon impaling somebody and flying off) is that one of the creatures involved has the movement speed, and is actively carrying the other creature. It falls under "In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there's doubt on where forced movement can move a creature."
Trying to use a reposition-type effect to punch somebody up into the air is very clearly different, and it's one of the things the rule is there to prevent. While the GM could decide to allow it, there isn't a good reason to.
Second, your proposed tactic is going to run into a different problem with forced movement.
If forced movement would move you into a space you can't occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.Unless the target has a fly speed, you can't push them into the air. Certainly not high enough that they will take fall damage afterwards.I was rightly criticized in another thread for using a lack of Burrow Speed to justify why a Burrowing Creature that Swallowed Whole a PC couldn't auto-kill them by simply Burrowing away without leaving a tunnel. And come to think of it, it is a weirdly written rule. Forced movement doesn't rely on your Speed, yet it suddenly matters for determining where you can be moved?
Perhaps it's just meant for stuff like Leading Dance (I learned about that recently), where the target is walking with you, but it's technically forced movement.
It doesn't make sense to use a lack of a Fly Speed to say why a target can't move through the air. It's like saying a worm can't be carried away by a bird because worms can't fly.
The difference in all the examples (burrowing creature with somebody inside, bird carrying off a worm, horned dragon impaling somebody and flying off) is that one of the creatures involved has the movement speed, and is actively carrying the other creature. It falls under "In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there's doubt on where forced movement can move a creature."
Trying to use a reposition-type effect to punch somebody up into the air is very clearly different, and it's one of the things the rule is there to prevent. While the GM could decide to allow it, there isn't a good reason to.
Acid Grip isn't trying to punch people into the air. "An ephemeral, taloned hand grips the target, burning it with magical acid... the claw moves it up to 5/10/20 feet in a direction of your choice." Hm, that actually sounds a lot like a bird carrying off a worm.
Ok, here is the text on Pull from Monster Core:
Pull [one-action] Requirements The monster’s last action was a success with a Strike that lists Pull in its damage entry; Effect The monster attempts to Reposition the creature, moving it closer to the monster. This attempt neither applies nor counts toward the monster’s multiple attack penalty. If Pull lists a distance, change the distance the creature is pulled on a success to that distance.
So this action, explicitly named "Pull," is a MAP-less Reposition that must move the creature towards the user. This can pull creatures into danger because it is obviously pulling. What if I had a reach of 10 feet and tried to do the same with a regular Reposition? Would that count as pulling because the creature is moving toward me? Would it not count because Reposition is not exclusively for pushing/pulling?
And on another note, if there is a listed distance for a Push/Pull success, what about a critical success?