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I am one of the billions, or even trillions, of DMs who will not allow Magic-Item-Creation Feats beyond Scribe Scrolls & Brew Potions.
But in a few months when my current campaign ends and I start the next, well, the campaign I'm planning could probably benefit from PCs with the Magic-Item Creation Feats.
So I'm here for advice.
As you well know, the reason billions and trillions of us don't allow these Feats is firstly and most importantly, group treasure gets effectively doubled since the PCs just make it all at half price -- completely ruining the game. And secondly, not that the billions and trillions of us needed another reason, because the PCs want to stop the whole adventure and heroic plotline to sit in a room for a few weeks to make their Magic Items.
Here's what I'm thinking: Using an Item Creation Feat to create a Magic Item is 10% less than the full cost of the Magic Item rather than a 50% discount. Now the PCs can get their gear at 90% of cost which is not that terrible, I think.
Additionally, creation time will require only half the time dictated to by RAW.
What do y'all think?....
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Thanks
your premise is false.
Blasphemy!
.The wizard/caster has to trade a combat applicable (metamagic) feat for a crafting feat. With Scribe scroll and Heighten it will be #3 non-combat feat. My point is there's a real tradeoff that's being made.
This is really what I'm needing advice on. I know that in our games, and I think in most games, the Wizard is pretty much the most powerful PC by 9th/10th Level -- sometimes earlier. So my gut tells me that getting a couple Item Creation Feats in place of Empower Spell or Twin Spell or Gr. Spell Penetration or etc likely won't be too dramatic a weakness. The Wizard will still be able to blast to smithereens or Create Pit to-death my monsters even before the Barbarian or Archer murder-hobos my innocent little monsters. And trading that to allow the rest of the party get some equipment (Magic Items) that they want -- since the campaign I'm designing likely won't have many opportunities to take gold and gems and loot and sell it / trade it in a big city -- will be a fair trade off. But it's certainly concerning enough that I am looking for other opinions.
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anecdotally where there's been crafting the crafter has to miss out on some adventures as he's stuck crafting. Shoot, he's been yelled at by the other players for taking too much time but it's mostly done via email so "in-game" time isn't affected that much and the crafter may get the sessions first 2hrs as freetime while the others do their thing. In Game time is a price that has to be paid by someone or shared (so Retraining might be a good thing). Downtime, skills and crafting have to be important so non-magic item crafting people have something they WANT to do. I've never been in a game where there's enough time to craft whatever you want. A good time split is 50% self and 50% party items.
Wow, this is really big food for thought. Obviously, since I don't allow Crafting (beyond Scrolls & Potions) I've never run into these situations. I'm going to really need to look at the RAW for crafting times and think about the adventures I'm designing as part of the campaign and remember your words of advice here.
.If you use the classic "buy at full, sell at half" then you've already deflated(as in economics) the value of crafting and WBL valuations are inherently inflated. Pricing should be tied to CHA and Prof skills in some way. ....
If you want to lower that 50% there are easy things to do. A) Add material cost of 10% which instantly makes it 60/40. B) Add professional skill discount of (Skill Bonus)% or in 5% chunks. This whacks valuations down and gives meaning to the skills. C) Price = (3%)*(10 -CHA)*BookPrice {simple but effective}. F){cause it deserves an "F"} XP cost was a pain in the a$$ so don't do that. Lastly you can move crafting magic items to $250gp/day, yes, that quadruples "time out" and scales better with mundane crafting.
More to crunch numbers on, THANKS!
Thanks
[ I know that in our games, and I think in most games, the Wizard is pretty much the most powerful PC by 9th/10th Level -- sometimes earlier.
hahaha, most games must have horrible players. While a well built Wizard is powerful, there are many character builds that can outclass him.
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So you don't want the PCs to get extra wealth from the feats, but you do want them to have the ability to craft magic items because your campaign idea makes this a necessity? Instead of nerfing the feats while simultaneously pressuring a player to take them, you could just give them out for free in return for removing the gold discount aspect entirely.
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Yeah, I didn't even think of it this way.
On one hand, the Feats have never been allowed in my games. And I am absolutely not the only DM who disallows those Feats.
But I was just thinking through the early design of the upcoming Campaign: There isn't looking like there will be a place to buy gear until, I dunno, like, after 6th Level. And so I'm thinking, if that's true, how do I keep the PCs up to pace? And my immediate thought was Item Creation Feats. I'm not sold on any solution as of yeat -- and my current game is at 13th Level so we won't start the new Campaign until probably Jan-Feb of '25 so there's plenty of time for me to figure out what I need to figure out.
And advice is still very welcome from all over The Boards. Keep it coming!
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My snarky tone of voice will come out, however, Tottemas, as I reply that I am not at all nerfing the Feats; I'm sincerely trying to FIX the crap-bag design idiotically built that effectively ruined that aspect of the game. Any help from my fellow Lords of the Boards with the FIX is appreciated.
But I know, YMMV.
There isn't looking like there will be a place to buy gear until, I dunno, like, after 6th Level.
Is them just finding it through little micro-adventures not on the table?
An abandoned cart is home to a monster. Hidden in a compartment under the driver seat is a dagger+1 or whatever. Or while camping next to a river someone will notice a glint in the bottom of the river. If they can manage to fish it out, it's a ring of protection +1! And so on.
But I was just thinking through the early design of the upcoming Campaign: There isn't looking like there will be a place to buy gear until, I dunno, like, after 6th Level. And so I'm thinking, if that's true, how do I keep the PCs up to pace?
Monsters encountered quite often have Random Treasure with them, just make sure they have enough Random treasure to keep the party on track.
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Ok, so you don't like crafting, aren't experienced with it, and your actual problem is that up to level 6 your players will have few chances to buy some tailored equipment.
So... why don't you just ask them what they'd want to buy? They make a list and you make sure to distribute it with the normal loot. No need to change anything else. Even if a bit silly, this will work and sometimes people are lucky.
No need to work with rules you don't want to, nor force your players into taking the crafting feats.
In fact, with this approach you are actually just cutting the middle man. Usually you'd think about what loot to give your players or roll on tables, which does take some work... just for them to complain about how useless stuff are, sell them and buy what they actually want.
Yeah, these are the things I've been thinking about.
The haunted asylum, the empty village, the Zombie-plague town, and the rural spaces in between them, can all have loads of stuff to find. The haunted asylum can have a spellbook, holy symbols, and a couple masterwork weapons maybe. The empty village would have a guard post with a minor arsenal of masterwork weapons and armors. The town would have a few +1 things that the PCs can grab while fighting the first few Zombies before they get overwhelmed and the Ghouls come out and they have to flee. This can get them all the way to Lepidstadt.
Yeah, these are the things I've been thinking about.
The haunted asylum, the empty village, the Zombie-plague town, and the rural spaces in between them, can all have loads of stuff to find. The haunted asylum can have a spellbook, holy symbols, and a couple masterwork weapons maybe. The empty village would have a guard post with a minor arsenal of masterwork weapons and armors. The town would have a few +1 things that the PCs can grab while fighting the first few Zombies before they get overwhelmed and the Ghouls come out and they have to flee. This can get them all the way to Lepidstadt.
Ok, so you're playing Carrion Crown. I noticed the same issue, there just didn't seem to be a lot of Magic items early on, and I did just what I described above. whenever my party did kill something, I rolled the random treasure appropriate for that kill, and added to what the module had listed. If you are using Combat Manager is is super easy.
So, it's a Homebrew Campaign that starts with Strange Aeons vol. 1, "In Search of Sanity." But it's not a Count who put them in the Briarstone Asylum but rather they are Gatewalkers who have lost their memories and were put there. Then the Campaign goes to the adventure from Dungeon 134, "And Madness Follows" -- PCs tracking down some Hastur mystery not knowing it's Hastur, through an empty village and Zombie/Alien-plagued town. And next uses the intro from "The Haunting of Harrowstone" in Carrion Crown: Kendra Lorrimor will find the PCs in an empty village and express relief and thanksgiving that they're still alive -- she'll be the one who can answer a bit of their missing memories as described in Strange Aeons and Gatewalkers. That gets them to Ravengro where they'll see for the first time actual proof of the Campaign bad guys: Night Heralds (Dominion of the Black) and some Cenobite disciples of the Velstrac Demagogues. There'll be some use of the Harrowstone Prison as a dungeon but with the Homebrew villains rather than the Carrion Crown ex-prisoners. Then on to Lepidstadt where the PCs can really take control of the Campaign instead of desperately trying to find their lost identities.
I actually have a Thread elsewhere on the Boards seeking suggestions/advice on wrestling with the Campaign design -- often times just writing this out on The Boards really helps massage it into my mind, working out the kinks and problems.
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You mentioned there was no way for the players to obtain the items they need til later, so a contracted Merchant (who is their boss/character with own agenda, /directing the PCs) may not be available?
Here's what I'm thinking: Using an Item Creation Feat to create a Magic Item is 10% less than the full cost of the Magic Item rather than a 50% discount. Now the PCs can get their gear at 90% of cost which is not that terrible, I think.
Additionally, creation time will require only half the time dictated to by RAW.
On item creation costs, I'd recommend changing it to somewhere between 10%-25% discount, like you're thinking. However, the creation speed is already quick for Magic creation, and you can already cut it in half at a +5 DC, so stick with the norm.
Additionally..
They could need custom material for custom gear, collected from specific monstertusks, hides, flora etc, they'll need to search, disect and collect these.
The crafting check could be at higher difficulty without proper blueprint (+5 to +10).
All custom items could have higher DC (+5 to +10) to represent the difficulty of innovation.
You could add the need for a series of additional simple checks such as knowledge Arcana/Religion, Sleight of hand, Strength Check, making the creation a team effort.
Make available potions of Crafters Fortune for a +5 luck bonus on a crafting check.
They'll treasure these.
A contracted Merchant (who is their boss) may not be available?
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There is a real possibility of including an NPC with some Item Creation Feats and having that NPC be willing to tag along for a little while -- making a little bit of money on his crafting ability until he can get to a town where he can begin to rebuild his life.
Thanks!
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On item creation costs, I'd recommend changing it to somewhere between 10%-25% discount, like you're thinking. However, the creation speed is already quick for Magic creation, and you can already cut it in half at a +5 DC, so stick with the norm.
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I'll definitely consider the 25% instead of the 10%. And really read the time requirements to try to figure out what's most appropriate for our game needs.
It's quite a bit, all in all, to think through.
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Its not directly what you were asking about, but I thought you might want to know about related house rules.
I think there are too many item creation feats. To cut down on them, I've made 2 feats: Craft Magic Consumables, and Craft Permanent Magic Items.
Consumables are magic items that have limited uses or are hard to recharge. It covers scrolls, potions, wands, staves, and a number of miscellaneous items with finite uses. Most of them are cheap items that are priced at the bare minimum needed to store and cast spells. Only spellcasters can take this feat.
Craft Permanent Magic Items are for lasting magic items. It covers wondrous magic items, magic arms and armor, rings, and rods. They are much more expensive, so there is more leeway for mistakes and errors. Consequentially, any character can take this feat. Non spell casters can use craft or profession skills to craft instead of spellcraft. As an added perk, non spell casters can also craft items along side the spell casters instead of bugging them if they can go adventure yet.
Sounds like the black company rules which (been decades since I looked at them) had three different levels of longer lasting power e.g. consumeables, charges and then permanent items. I still remember them fondly even if that whole system was immensely complicated compared to pathfinder. Deefinately prefer them over the dozen of item crafting feats for pathfinder.