I'm making a character for Outlaws of Alkenstar, and I bumbled into an idea I like.
A Sweetbreath Gnoll bullet witch that charms her way across the country stealing hearts and loot along the way.
I'm fairly unfamiliar with Pathfinder 2 (I've played one campaign), and I'm hoping I can get some help figuring out possible options for her.
My natural inclination is to go Witch then archetype into Gunslinger. I'm more interested in the charm and shooting side of this than the punching people with guns side. I like the flavor of witch, along with the whole 'you have an otherworldly patron' thing.
I'm aware of Bullet Dancer, but it's very keyed toward Monk and with the way PF2's multiclassing Archetypes work, I don't think it's worth going down that path in a 10 level AP.
It's too late to edit, but our GM is giving us the Free Archetype rule.
What aspects of "witch" are you actually interested in emulating mechanically? Witch could be the witch class, but it could also maybe be sorcerer, wizard, or thaumaturge. All depends on what you want.
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Witch is absolutely not the right Class choice here, I don't care what the lore calls it, the PF2 Witch is quite simply incompatible with what the protag of those games does and can do.
Simiarly, I think you might be a bit disappointed by the fact that at her weakest, Cereza is already more powerful and higher level than you could ever hope to achieve in a level 1 - 10 AP so unless the GM is interested in doing a bunch of extra legwork to give a ton of special new nigh-game breaking special abilities to all the PCs (be it through ad-hoc stuff or via a higher than appropirate level Relic using the Relic rules) then you're going to come away from it feeling unsatisfied but then again, that's one of the biggest problems with trying recreate a character from many other forms of entertainment as powerscaling of their stories have no obgligation to be linear or balanced against a world full of equals.
I'd suggest you start with Gunslinger, Way of the Spellshot and grab the Diabolic Sorcerer MCA to tie yourself mechanically to your pact with Devils (they call them demons/infernals in the home setting but they forge and make contracts with mortals to lend them power and that is the role of Devils in Golarion).
If you don't go with Gunslinger as your base Class and want to use firearms as your main offensive schtick then you are doing the closest thing that PF2 has to intentionally building an unplayably bad PC without intentionally making one that is bad as a joke/thought exercise.
To elaborate a little, the gunslinger's abilities are tailored around the single shot, crit-fishing nature of most of 2e's firearms. Other classes really struggle to make them work. Investigators can kind of make them work, but you will still miss slinger's reload a lot. The gunslinger multiclass archetype is frustrating because practiced reload is a 10th level feat, and that's a long time to go without.
If you're conaidering the handful of firearms with repeating, on the other hand, they have such unique drawbacks that the Gunslinger isn't very good with them.
-Air Repeaters are simple weapons any character can use, but the d4 damage die hampers the effectiveness. The best classes for these are Thaumaturges, Starlit Span Maguses, and Exemplars (If they stay as they are in the playtest), who can increase the lackluster damage in one way or another (And even then, unless you absolutely need that 2nd hand, Maguses and Exemplars are probably better off with a bow*). Also, be aware that developer comments on the forum suggest the Long air repeater is supposed to be a 2 handed weapon, but it's never been errata'd so your GM may or may not care. The 6 round mag on the smaller model is a tad risky as well- Carry a backup or you will need to spend an entire round reloading at some point.
-The Barricade Buster is only available via Orc Weapon Familiarity or Unconventional Weaponry. It's incredibly narrow 25-40 ft. effective range means only Fighters using point blank shot to remove vollet and Rangers using hunt prey/far shot to play the long game can use it effectively.
*Also, as an ex-Air repeater Thaumaturge, I must disclose that you are likely to consider switching to a Returning throwing weapon at some point. I did, and it was probably the right move.
Yeah, don't play a Witch. The class is fun but it is terrible at what you want to be doing here. You want a Way of the Pistolero Gunslinger as your base class, and then either Pistol Phenom or Bard for the archetype. Then get performance feats you can, especially either Impressive Performance or Versatile Performance depending on your archetype.
I lean hard on the archetype because versatile performance will help you consolidate your skill increases. But you'll probably want both archetypes eventually.
What aspects of "witch" are you actually interested in emulating mechanically?
Hexes, curses, having an interesting familiar, and generally being a weird little guy. And also playing a caster that isn't a Wizard, since I've played that before.
Witch is absolutely not the right Class choice here, I don't care what the lore calls it, the PF2 Witch is quite simply incompatible with what the protag of those games does and can do...
I'm not so much interested in emulating her mechanics as her *vibe*. A confident, attractive lady with cool powers and a neo-witch vibe.
*mechanically* I'm not sure what I want. I know PF2 is extremely... restrictive? With how you need to do things - everything is just-so, so I'm wary of defining what I *want* before I have an idea of what I *can do*.
What is an MCA?
To elaborate a little, the gunslinger's abilities are tailored around the single shot, crit-fishing nature of most of 2e's firearms. Other classes really struggle to make them work...
I noticed in my brief flip through that a lot of guns have low base damage, but Deadly or Lethal. The thing that sort of speaks to me about what I've seen is the trick shots. Banking shots off of things and stuff.
I had to look up what a Thaumaturge is, and I'm unfamiliar with Starlit Span. Why do they manage to make firearms work where other classes don't? I was looking at a pair of double barrel pistols, but their damage *is* extremely low.
Yeah, don't play a Witch. The class is fun but it is terrible at what you want to be doing here. You want a Way of the Pistolero Gunslinger as your base class, and then either Pistol Phenom or Bard for the archetype.
That sounds so... unsatisfying, though. I worry that archetyping into a caster will make the casting aspect almost worthless. But I guess archetyping into Gunslinger makes guns almost worthless. I find myself frustrated with the way multiclassing works.
That's the basic conundrum, yes. Guns aren't a great weapon for dabblers. Their low damage, high fatal dice really pushed them towards classes with legendary weapon proficiency, and their reload actions are hard to hit on a caster, much less a caster who already has gold third actions like the witch. And offensive casting always lags on multiclass.
Thaumaturge can make a low damage, one handed gun like the air repeater work because they get a ton of extra damage: +2 per dice from implement empowerment and at least 2+half hour level from exploit vulnerability. They also get a fair bit of magical flavor, including options for familiars, scrolls, and a wand.
Starlit Span is a Magus hybrid study that can be pretty overpowered, though I'm not sure what you do about reload actions exactly. I guess if you only spell strike every other round you can maybe make that work.
The other problem with your concept is its too MAD. You need dex for guns, charisma to be charming, and intelligence for spells if you go witch. One of those will be worse than the other, and you haven't even shared up your save stats yet. You can't be good at everything.
Besides what has been covered already, I see two options:
Starlit Span Magus, witch archetype with acrobatic performer to let you dance using dexterity. I don't know that you can use acrobatics for checks like Impressive Performance, though, so you may not be likeable. But you'll have full martial proficiency, decent casting proficiency, and I guess can pick up hexes for some reason.
Warrior Muse Bard with gunslinger or pistol phenom archetype. With Courageous Anthem shoring up accuracy and Martial Performance or Lingering Composition shoring up your action economy, you can maybe fit in some pot shots between rounds casting proper spells.
Ditto what Captain Morgan is saying.
I threw together a build in Pathbuilder.
Gunslinger base. Bard multiclass. Hyena familiar flavored as a creepy little dude. Small but impactful selection of spells. Not optimized by any stretch but could be decent.
Just temper your expectations. Bayonetta and PF2 have entirely different tones and styles they are targeting. You can do a reasonable approximation but you will never be an unstoppable god killer like the videogame character. Find a "good enough" that still lets you be hyped.
What they said. Guns are primarily for the gunslinger. Reloading and crit focus gets in the way of other classes using them efficiently.
If your willing to trade the "gun" for another weapon, there are a lot more options.
Like warrior bard (charming), dual weapon warrior archetype, and picking up dual thrower at 4.
Or stick with Witch and you can use your hair as a weapon.
If you want to stick with guns. Then Pistolaro is the Charisma secondary, constantly throwing out one liners. Then archetype probably into bard for some spells.
Also, any class can dress in black.
Really, Bayonetta wouldn't be a witch in Pathfinder terms. She's hardcore bard, what with all the dancing to cast. Bards get martial weapon and light armor proficiency, which helps.
Another way to interject some witchy flavor is to take the changeling heritage. I know you wanted a sweet breath gnoll... But something has to give.
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I theorycrafted some approaches to use firearms without being a gunslinger (to play alkenstar), and most just don't work as the special reload actions are the key to using them effectively.
Think about what your character would do with its three actions - spending one of them to reload without doing anything does not feel good.
Relying on crits without the extra attack bonus from gunslinger (or fighter i guess) is difficult, and in an AP like alkenstar, where you have to engage a lot of higher level enemies, you will have difficulties even then.
Flavor is free, you can do many things without needing a class mechanic.
Alkenstar is a bit difficult as a caster due to the mana wastes, i suggest asking your DM about the details how it will be handled.
From your descriptions i would suggest to look into the "new" melee bard (warrior muse).
You could also talk about a custom deity to get Air Repeater rice up to D6.
Starlit Span is a Magus hybrid study that can be pretty overpowered, though I'm not sure what you do about reload actions exactly. I guess if you only spell strike every other round you can maybe make that work.
I was specifically talking about a Magus using an air repeater, since if you only ever make one strike a round, the Air Repeaters' clip sizes aren't a big issue (But unless your character needs their other hand for something, a shortbow is still better). I really hope was clear about that. Please do not try to make a Magus using a black powder firearm. You will be miserable.
If I'm playing a cowboy setting, I wanna shoot guns, so replacing guns with other things is out of the question.
I tried Spellshot Gunslinger out, but you're locked into 2 feats from an archetype dedication that doesn't have a second feat until level 6, meaning I'm barred from gaining *actual magic* through some kind of other class archetype until level 8
Saedar and Captain Morgan's pistolero suggestion does kind of feel good. The flashy, showy reload of the pistolero feels very on-brand. And bard, admittedly, does fit with the whole dancing magic angle... But The hexes and things are something that I badly want, and I don't think anything Bard can get has a similar sort of feel mechanically or flavorfully.
If I'm playing a cowboy setting, I wanna shoot guns, so replacing guns with other things is out of the question.
I tried Spellshot Gunslinger out, but you're locked into 2 feats from an archetype dedication that doesn't have a second feat until level 6, meaning I'm barred from gaining *actual magic* through some kind of other class archetype until level 8
Saedar and Captain Morgan's pistolero suggestion does kind of feel good. The flashy, showy reload of the pistolero feels very on-brand. And bard, admittedly, does fit with the whole dancing magic angle... But The hexes and things are something that I badly want, and I don't think anything Bard can get has a similar sort of feel mechanically or flavorfully.
What do "hexes and things" cover that regular occult spells plus Dirge of Doom don't? And can you achieve that by multiclassing into witch to get the familiar+basic lesson for a hex with no save like Stoke the Flames?
It feels like you're asking for an awful lot of things for one player character to be, which feels like a tough sell for any d20 game based around character specialization.
What do "hexes and things" cover that regular occult spells plus Dirge of Doom don't? And can you achieve that by multiclassing into witch to get the familiar+basic lesson for a hex with no save like Stoke the Flames?
It feels like you're asking for an awful lot of things for one player character to be, which feels like a tough sell for any d20 game based around character specialization.
A lot of this is residual frustration with how restrictive multiclassing in PF2 feels crossed with how many moving parts there are in the system vs how much I know about it and how different classes from PF1 are in PF2.
My experience with the system is very little, but as I understand, in PF2 I can never be, say, 1/2 Fighter 1/2 Wizard. If I start as a Fighter I'll only ever be ~~1/4 Wizard, 3/4 Fighter, and vice versa.
So if I want to mainly be a caster, I need to START OUT as a caster and choose Gunslinger as my Archetype or else I'll be a Gunslinger that can cast instead of a Caster that can sling guns.
Do I have that correct? I might be mistaken.
What do "hexes and things" cover that regular occult spells plus Dirge of Doom don't? And can you achieve that by multiclassing into witch to get the familiar+basic lesson for a hex with no save like Stoke the Flames?
It feels like you're asking for an awful lot of things for one player character to be, which feels like a tough sell for any d20 game based around character specialization.
A lot of this is residual frustration with how restrictive multiclassing in PF2 feels crossed with how many moving parts there are in the system vs how much I know about it and how different classes from PF1 are in PF2.
My experience with the system is very little, but as I understand, in PF2 I can never be, say, 1/2 Fighter 1/2 Wizard. If I start as a Fighter I'll only ever be ~~1/4 Wizard, 3/4 Fighter, and vice versa.
So if I want to mainly be a caster, I need to START OUT as a caster and choose Gunslinger as my Archetype or else I'll be a Gunslinger that can cast instead of a Caster that can sling guns.
Do I have that correct? I might be mistaken.
You are correct in that you are always going to be "Class + Thing" with archetypes.
There's no sense in thinking about it in those percentages, though, because it simply isn't how the system works.
You are correct in that you are always going to be "Class + Thing" with archetypes.
There's no sense in thinking about it in those percentages, though, because it simply isn't how the system works.
The percentages are just to help visualize, not anything near precise, I understand.
It's more like... If I'm making a Fighter + Wizard in something like PF1 or 5e, I can 'correct course' and lean more into Fighter or Wizard depending on what I'm feeling. I can ultimately end up leaning harder into the Wizard side even though I started out as a Fighter.
In PF2 my starting class largely defines my trajectory, and any Archetypes I pick up can only nudge me slightly in that direction.
So I'm experiencing a lot of analysis paralysis anxiety trying to figure out a way I can start out as a Caster but still feel like shooting a boy is a viable course of action.
And then even more anxiety around how each Caster is different and if I'm going to regret choosing Bard over Witch or what have you.
Retraining is TECHNICALLY an option, but based on how my last AP went (Agents of Edgewatch), we're not going to have time for me to theoretically retrain all or most of my class levels if I figure out something isn't working. I largely consider Retraining nonviable in most games. Perhaps this mindset is wrong.
What do "hexes and things" cover that regular occult spells plus Dirge of Doom don't
Dirge of Doom on a gunslinger is available at level 12. A bit late.
But I agree that there are plenty of good occult spells that fit the theme.
So if I want to mainly be a caster, I need to START OUT as a caster and choose Gunslinger as my Archetype or else I'll be a Gunslinger that can cast instead of a Caster that can sling guns.Do I have that correct? I might be mistaken.
Yes, kinda.
If you took all the archetype feats, you could end up being close to 50/50.
Also Magus is probably as close to a 50/50 split if you want martial and spells.
Really, the main issue is that guns are stuck in their own corner, intentionally to keep them out of the typical fantasy setting. Which that makes mixing spells and guns difficult.
So I'm experiencing a lot of analysis paralysis anxiety trying to figure out a way I can start out as a Caster but still feel like shooting a boy is a viable course of action.
Talk to your GM, but in my experience, most will let you change characters if you're not having fun with your current one.
Some might even throw in a quest or something.
Oof. Lot to unpack here. First off, if you're that worried about picking the wrong class, you should talk to your GM about whether they would let you change it down the line.
Also, I think you are trying so hard to decide what class to write on your sheet and jamming all these disparate elements into the character, but you haven't articulated your role. Are you going to be the party face or the knowledge junkie? Since you know you want dex for guns, you probably can't have both charisma and intelligence in significant amounts. If you're a charmer, then that suggests charisma, which the witch is not meant to be.
And how do you want to function in combat? Are you focused on damage? Buffs? Debuffs? Battlefield control? How do you want your turns to look? Are you hoping to shoot your gun every round? Do you want to dance around the battlefield, or are you ok being a stationary turret? Are you ok with your familiar getting killed and then resurrected any day? Remember that most spells are two action, striking is one action, hexing or sustaining is one action, and so is reloading. That's 5 actions of stuff you can do without even touching movement.
Personally, I'm starting to think you should play a shooting star magus. As long as you use the right spells, you can let your intelligence whither and pump dex and charisma. Spellstrike and arcane cascade can make up for gun base damage not being amazing, and not all guns are fatal. You can probably figure out something with dual pistols so you can make two shots before you need to spend reactions reloading, or using a combination weapon to switch into melee.
But I can't tell that for sure because I don't know what your role is. I don't know if YOU know what your role is. Let's figure that out.
You're correct that Pathfinder 2e needs you to have an idea of your role when you build the character. But that's always been true, hasn't it? Take your example.
It's more like... If I'm making a Fighter + Wizard in something like PF1 or 5e, I can 'correct course' and lean more into Fighter or Wizard depending on what I'm feeling. I can ultimately end up leaning harder into the Wizard side even though I started out as a Fighter.
In PF1, you could technically do what you describe... But you'd end up with a bad character. Your BAB would lag. Your spell level would lag. Your arcane armor failure would get in the way. Avoiding these problems required very specific builds, probably with a prestige class involved. That really undercuts the "organic" character growth narrative. Heck, you'd need to have have chosen an ability array that lended itself to both classes.
PF2 basically put guard rails on so it is almost impossible to be bad at your primary role. If you start fighter, you'll always be a credible fighter. You could spend every feat you have on the wizard archetype, but you'll still have the same legendary weapon proficiency as a mono fighter. You'll just also have a neat bag of magic tricks. What you won't be is as good a wizard as my mono wizard.
If you decide down the road that your character doesn't feel like they should still be mostly fighter, then you talk to your GM about respeccing. Magus would be a really solid narrative option at that point, what with the hybrid study. I just let a player switch from fighter to champion because we agreed the character had evolved in that direction.
Oof. Lot to unpack here. First off, if you're that worried about picking the wrong class, you should talk to your GM about whether they would let you change it down the line...
That's a good place to start, I suppose.
I want to be the party face, I want to be able to manipulate and fool people, and I want to mostly be support in battle. I don't need to be popping heads, I just want to be able to pull my weight.
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That's a good place to start, I suppose.
I want to be the party face, I want to be able to manipulate and fool people, and I want to mostly be support in battle. I don't need to be popping heads, I just want to be able to pull my weight.
There are plenty of good gunslinger support actions.
Cover fire, fake out, cauterize, smoke curtain, called shot, Deflecting shot ... a bit of a gap but eventually ricochet legend.
Pistolaro can be the party face and demoralize on reload, and frightened is a great debuff. -1 to everything. Qnd with the way crits work, -1 is kind of like -2 in most other games. Just note it's once per enemy per combat.
Think of it as a frightening hex.
Then archetype bard will give support spells to mix in.
As a sample turn.
1 action Courageous Anthem for +1 to allies.
1 action to Strike.
1 action to reload and demoralize, for -1 to enemies.
Reaction to Fake Out to give an ally +3
You could reasonably give out a net +5 to hit, while also dealing some good damage yourself, and being the part face.
So yea. Pistolaro with Bard archetype.
Or bard with gunslinger archetype. Dual pistols + gunpowder knuckles means you'll always have a loaded firearm for fake out. Pack Hunter isn't as good as cooperative nature but it isn't bad. You can also pick up Running Reload and Practiced Reload to ease your actions economy.
Go into pistol phenom later, maybe. Versatile Performance does synergize nicely with it.
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One other note for bard: their muse concept is so open ended it can probably support whatever narrative elements you wanted from a patron. Get yourself the hyena familiar and you've basically checked every box you had while making a much more functional character. You don't have hexes technically, but mechanicallly most hexes are kinda just worse versions of what compositions can already do.
Also, I know people poo poo spell shot, but mechanically it seems fine to me and it has a lot of the same sort of magic bullet tricks Bayonetta uses.
This is what I have so far. https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=719485
I'm waffling on Background. Hobnobber is a really good background feat, but Lore: Alcohol isn't doing much for me (Except giving me the ability to sound very classy on dates, I guess?).
My stats are probably sub-optimal. I've got a +3 in Dex and Cha which are my two big boy stats. It would be more optimal to use standard attributes and drop the + to Str and Int, as well as the penalty to Wis, but I'm kind of a fan of 'working with the hand I'm dealt' so to speak, and leaning into the Gnoll stat block.
I've been considering how I want to encorporate my 'muse' narratively. I need to look through Pathfinder's cosmology and see if there's some sort of creature whose 'helpfulness' could be ambiguous enough to satisfy me.
Spell Shot sounds pretty good, actually, but I'm turned off by the fact that it interacts EXTREMELY BADLY with free archetype. It traps you in the archetype for 2 feats but doesn't get a second available feat until level 6, which would delay me getting Bard Dedication until level 6 or 8. Which is... near the end of the campaign.
I haven't checked to see if Gunslingers have a method to gain a second Way, but if they can, maybe i'd like to pick that up.
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I can't open your link (which is a problem with my phone, not your link) but it sounds like you went gunslinger. I cannot over stress how much I advise pumping dexterity to 18. 80% of the gunslinger appeal is big juicy fatal crits. Lowering your chances of critting is just voluntarily blue balling yourself.
You can skip spell shot. I forgot how it interacts with free archetype, and you won't have the mental stats to leverage recall knowledge anyway.