Scour the Library and Secret checks


Rules Discussion


Scour the Library reads:

Scour the Library wrote:
(1 action, Psychic, Psyche) Seeing an enemy's attack, you quickly consult multiple scraps of lore in your mind, synthesizing them into the perfect plan. Make a check to Recall Knowledge (using an appropriate skill) about one creature within 60 feet. On a success, in addition to the normal benefits, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against that creature and to your AC against the creature's next attack. On a critical success, the bonuses are +2.

As Recall Knowledge is a secret roll, how does the psychic gain the attack and AC without knowing the result of the secret check? Does the GM have to apply the bonuses secretly?

Dark Archive

I would say the GM tells you if the roll was a success - the secret roll just keeping the DC hidden. Applying the bonuses secretly is totally possible, but sounds like a bookkeeping headache to me.


Secret checks don't have to be Secret. In that case, the GM can just make it visible.
Also, the only result that is not obvious for RK checks is the critical failure one (that can be mismatched with a success). In that case, the GM can give the +1 to hide the critical failure (the GM has all the rights to give circumstance bonuses so it's perfectly RAW).

Overall, it's mostly a non-problem unless you want it to be one.


Secret checks become pretty problematic when you have an ability that depends from its result. For example many rogues abilities requires to know if you are undetected or not to be used, conflicting with secret checks.

Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:
I would say the GM tells you if the roll was a success - the secret roll just keeping the DC hidden. Applying the bonuses secretly is totally possible, but sounds like a bookkeeping headache to me.

Not exactly. Secrets checks by definition are entirely secret. Hide a DC isn't considered a secret check.

Player Core pg. 226 wrote:
Sometimes you won’t know whether you have succeeded at a skill check. If an action has the secret trait, the GM rolls the check for you and informs you of the effect without revealing the result of the roll or the degree of success. The GM rolls secret checks when your knowledge about the outcome is imperfect, like when you’re searching for a hidden creature or object, attempting to deceive someone, translating a tricky bit of ancient text, or remembering some piece of lore. This way, you as the player don’t know things that your character wouldn’t. This rule is the default for actions with the secret trait, but the GM can choose not to use secret checks if they would rather some or all rolls be public.

In general the Secret Checks works more like a suggestion than a need. My recommendation is to only use it if you think you really needs it (like for example the players are trying to get information about an enemy secret organization and you don't want that they have sure about this). This may break the critical failure effect of RK but let's be honest that thing is a mess.

Including thats why the designers choose to add a parenthesis to its critical failure in PC:
Quote:
Critical Failure You recall incorrect information. The GM answers your question falsely (or decides to give you no information, as on a failure).


Sneak is a good example to use to illustrate when a Secret check becomes knowledge that a character has.

The roll is made in secret by the GM. The player does not know the DC, the result of the roll, or the degree of success.

The player then has to make decisions for their character's further actions without that knowledge of the results of Sneak.

The effect of the Sneak results are quickly going to become apparent to the character once they commit to using those actions. If the character pops out of hiding to make an attack and finds that all of the enemies are off-guard and looking around to try and spot where they went, then the Sneak results were a success. If the character instead ends their turn and all of the enemies continue targeting them with attacks in their new location, then the result of Sneak was a failure.

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So applying that in general, a Secret check only needs to stay secret until the player commits to further actions.

So in the case of Scour the Library, the roll results stay secret until the player commits to using the attack and potential bonus against a target. At that point the GM can tell them to add the bonus to the attack roll or not.

There is still a bit of stickiness with the knowledge gained from Recall Knowledge. If you get the bonus, then you as a player will know that your knowledge check was a success. While if you don't get the bonus, but did get some information, you will know that the result was a critical failure and the information is incorrect. But that is more of a problem with Recall Knowledge in general than it is with how Secret checks should be handled.


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Finoan wrote:
There is still a bit of stickiness with the knowledge gained from Recall Knowledge. If you get the bonus, then you as a player will know that your knowledge check was a success. While if you don't get the bonus, but did get some information, you will know that the result was a critical failure and the information is incorrect. But that is more of a problem with Recall Knowledge in general than it is with how Secret checks should be handled.

And the GM can give the bonus in case of a critical failure and add 1 to the monster AC just for that attack. It's not exactly complicated to hide it. Also, there's at most 1 chance in 10 for the +1 to actually matter (and 1 in 20 for a critical failure), so even giving it without tempering the monster AC would be fine. At least, it'll make the critical failure much more credible.

Liberty's Edge

Finoan wrote:

Sneak is a good example to use to illustrate when a Secret check becomes knowledge that a character has.

The roll is made in secret by the GM. The player does not know the DC, the result of the roll, or the degree of success.

The player then has to make decisions for their character's further actions without that knowledge of the results of Sneak.

The effect of the Sneak results are quickly going to become apparent to the character once they commit to using those actions. If the character pops out of hiding to make an attack and finds that all of the enemies are off-guard and looking around to try and spot where they went, then the Sneak results were a success. If the character instead ends their turn and all of the enemies continue targeting them with attacks in their new location, then the result of Sneak was a failure.

-----

So applying that in general, a Secret check only needs to stay secret until the player commits to further actions.

So in the case of Scour the Library, the roll results stay secret until the player commits to using the attack and potential bonus against a target. At that point the GM can tell them to add the bonus to the attack roll or not.

There is still a bit of stickiness with the knowledge gained from Recall Knowledge. If you get the bonus, then you as a player will know that your knowledge check was a success. While if you don't get the bonus, but did get some information, you will know that the result was a critical failure and the information is incorrect. But that is more of a problem with Recall Knowledge in general than it is with how Secret checks should be handled.

Best about RK crit failure is that you cannot retry RK after that. So you know it is wrong info.

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