Remastered patron abilities and specific familiars


Rules Discussion


How do the unique patron familiar abilities interact with the prerequisites for specific familiars? I assumed not at all, but some people say they count so a level 1 witch can take a specific familiar which requires 4 abilities. I'm not sure what happens to the patron ability in that case. This smells wrong to me.


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there is direct conflict here:
Specific familiar:

Quote:
If your familiar gains more abilities than are necessary for that specific familiar, you can use the remaining abilities to select familiar and master abilities as normal.

Witch familiar:

Quote:

One of your familiar’s two bonus abilities is

always the one listed here, a mark of your patron’s indelible
influence.

One ability always HAS to be the one given by your patron.

You can only "pick" abilities if you have remaining abilities after paying for the specific familiar.

So, until you can have 1 extra ability than required by a specific familiar, to take the mandatory Patron ability, you cannot upgrade to that specific familiar.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Interesting. I had not considered that interpretation. I will be following this discussion closely.


I think the argument is primarily RAI.

Remember that the rules regarding upgrading to a specific familiar were originally written first - before the Player Core rules for Witch familiars getting additional non-choosable familiar abilities.

Also remember that adding a new feature to the game means checking all of the existing features of the game to see what interacts with it - which is a combinatorial increase, which (mathmuse might correct me on this) is an exponential growth pattern. Expecting the game developers to be able to keep up with the linear pace of new features while handling an exponential growth of rules checking and verification is untenable.

So the intent of the rules for getting a specific familiar is that you pay your choosable familiar abilities in order to get the specific familiar. You can't pay the non-choosable permanent familiar ability from the Witch class in payment for getting a specific familiar - especially if you are going to then turn around and say that you can't remove that familiar ability so you get to have the ability anyway even though you paid it as a cost for the upgrade.


Finoan wrote:

I think the argument is primarily RAI.

Remember that the rules regarding upgrading to a specific familiar were originally written first - before the Player Core rules for Witch familiars getting additional non-choosable familiar abilities.

Also remember that adding a new feature to the game means checking all of the existing features of the game to see what interacts with it - which is a combinatorial increase, which (mathmuse might correct me on this) is an exponential growth pattern. Expecting the game developers to be able to keep up with the linear pace of new features while handling an exponential growth of rules checking and verification is untenable.

So the intent of the rules for getting a specific familiar is that you pay your choosable familiar abilities in order to get the specific familiar. You can't pay the non-choosable permanent familiar ability from the Witch class in payment for getting a specific familiar - especially if you are going to then turn around and say that you can't remove that familiar ability so you get to have the ability anyway even though you paid it as a cost for the upgrade.

That's what I assumed and still think is correct, but someone on reddit felt confident enough otherwise to write a guide about it, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy.


Well, I would say that you are just as sane as I am... But that is not a difficult bar to meet or exceed.

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