Folks complain about the fighter and champion dedications offering so little to other martial classes. To an extent, I think that is fine because the later archetype feats offer so much and I don't think either dedication super needs a combat buff. But maybe offering a bit more well rounding could be nice. If you're already trained in the class skill, instead of (or in addition to) giving you an alternate trained skill, what if you got expert in that skill? It feels particularly fitting for the champion where you'd be deepening your relationship with religion or your deity's values.
Not gonna set the world on fire, but rounding out characters a bit feels good to me before they minmax Reactive/Retributive Strike.
As a champion i would probably stay away from fighter dedication as it currently is. I wouldn't want to invest the +2 in dex if im going for the heavy armor.
As a fighter that +2 Cha is either something ive already fit into my character concept or something I have to pull out from other stats in my concept to meet.
Its that level 12 fighter archetype feat that looks so odd to me. It effectively makes your character on par with a level 1 fighter proficiency wise but it requires you already have expert in some weapon or unarmed. Expert in a weapon at all normally doesnt happen till 13 for most non martial. That and it ends there no way to get to master through this archetype
Whereas the level 12 archetype feat for any spell caster archetype makes you as effective proficiency wise as a level 7 spell caster and you can get to master at level 18 with another feat.
It just makes me feel like a martial can really delve into also being a caster but a caster cant really delve as far into being a martial through archetype. obviously intentional but still weird.
If you're already trained in the class skill, instead of (or in addition to) giving you an alternate trained skill, what if you got expert in that skill?
For Fighter Dedication, I think getting trained in an alternate skill (what the dedication already provides) does a good job of rounding out the character if you are stacking Fighter archetype on a martial class.
What I remember people complaining about is the simple and martial proficiency being redundant. The only houserule fix I can see for that that would be on-theme would be to give proficiency in an Advanced Weapon if you already have martial weapon proficiency. Which again, isn't earth shattering, but it at least gives something to a Ranger that is taking Fighter Dedication.
Champion Dedication is giving proficiency in Heavy armor - which is less common than martial weapon proficiency. I think the only thing I have heard negative about that is that the proficiency doesn't increase without another feat cost, and even then it doesn't go past Expert. I think making it auto-increase to match the Armor Proficiency general feat from Player Core would be a minimum.
As a champion i would probably stay away from fighter dedication as it currently is. I wouldn't want to invest the +2 in dex if im going for the heavy armor.
As a fighter that +2 Cha is either something ive already fit into my character concept or something I have to pull out from other stats in my concept to meet.
Its that level 12 fighter archetype feat that looks so odd to me. It effectively makes your character on par with a level 1 fighter proficiency wise but it requires you already have expert in some weapon or unarmed. Expert in a weapon at all normally doesnt happen till 13 for most non martial. That and it ends there no way to get to master through this archetype
Whereas the level 12 archetype feat for any spell caster archetype makes you as effective proficiency wise as a level 7 spell caster and you can get to master at level 18 with another feat.
It just makes me feel like a martial can really delve into also being a caster but a caster cant really delve as far into being a martial through archetype. obviously intentional but still weird.Both though cap at 1 lower than max.
So a caster with martial dedication will cap at expert with weapons, instead of Master that the martials reach. And a martial will cap at master spellcasting while the casters cap at legendary spellcasting.
If you mean capping at 1 lower than all martials except fighter then yes but this is the fighter archetype. bWould non martials getting master with a level 18 feat through fighter archetype really be a problem?
Adding that they got the previous feat at 12. So this is a multi feat investment comparable to casters gaining proficiency.
As a champion i would probably stay away from fighter dedication as it currently is. I wouldn't want to invest the +2 in dex if im going for the heavy armor.
As a fighter that +2 Cha is either something ive already fit into my character concept or something I have to pull out from other stats in my concept to meet.
Its that level 12 fighter archetype feat that looks so odd to me. It effectively makes your character on par with a level 1 fighter proficiency wise but it requires you already have expert in some weapon or unarmed. Expert in a weapon at all normally doesnt happen till 13 for most non martial. That and it ends there no way to get to master through this archetype
Whereas the level 12 archetype feat for any spell caster archetype makes you as effective proficiency wise as a level 7 spell caster and you can get to master at level 18 with another feat.
It just makes me feel like a martial can really delve into also being a caster but a caster cant really delve as far into being a martial through archetype. obviously intentional but still weird.Both though cap at 1 lower than max.
So a caster with martial dedication will cap at expert with weapons, instead of Master that the martials reach. And a martial will cap at master spellcasting while the casters cap at legendary spellcasting.
If you mean capping at 1 lower than all martials except fighter then yes but this is the fighter archetype. bWould non martials getting master with a level 18 feat through fighter archetype really be a problem?
Adding that they got the previous feat at 12. So this is a multi feat investment comparable to casters gaining proficiency.
Yes, because all other martials cap at master.
the class specific benefits are very specifically and seldomly given through archetype.(usually in a much reduced capacity)
You don't see wizard archetype giving you the Thesis bonuses, which is the equivalent to fighter's...
Actually your right it would cause problems by invalidating warpriest who gets master at 19 and only in their deities favored weapon.
But then the point still stands. A caster can never be as much of a fighter as a fighter can be a caster.
As a specific example, a martial character taking Witch archetype is not going to get the Hex cantrip or the Patron familiar ability. They will get spell slots, but fewer of them, at lower Ranks, and with lower casting proficiency.
That character is going to be a general spellcaster, but not very specifically a Witch. About as much as a spellcasting class taking Fighter archetype will be a general martial but not specifically a Fighter.
Folks complain about the fighter and champion dedications offering so little to other martial classes. To an extent, I think that is fine because the later archetype feats offer so much and I don't think either dedication super needs a combat buff. But maybe offering a bit more well rounding could be nice. If you're already trained in the class skill, instead of (or in addition to) giving you an alternate trained skill, what if you got expert in that skill? It feels particularly fitting for the champion where you'd be deepening your relationship with religion or your deity's values.
Not gonna set the world on fire, but rounding out characters a bit feels good to me before they minmax Reactive/Retributive Strike.
Sorry for derailing with those other thoughts.
In general i feel like dedications can in the situation you mention feel like an access fee. A very expensive one.It would be nice to get from that use of a class feat something that makes the player at least feel like it was a class feat well spent. Access and one trained skill for a class feet doesn't feel good.
Perhaps if there was a list of benefits available to choose from when certain classes take a dedication in specific archetypes in lieu of the dedication benefits. Like the skill and redundant features.
For barbarian going into fighter for example you would keep the fighter class dc from the dedication but in liue of the reduntant features and extra skill you can pick from the benefit list.
That list can have on it very non game breaking options that still make the class feat feel like it was well spent.
I'd probably merge the Healing Touch feat into the Champion Dedication and the Opportunist feat into the Fighter Dedication. AoO at 2nd level is probably a huge buff, but since the Fighter Dedication is already worse than effectively all the other weapon style archetypes I don't think it would hurt that much.