Retraining shield block

[Halgur]

I had a player in a society game the other day playing a fighter that had used retraining to swap shield block for fleet. I and others at the table were unable to immediately provide him with a satisfactory reason why he cannot do this. In the end I just said 'not at my table'. What argument can I use to defend against someone wanting to lose shield block in favor of another general feat?

[The Raven Black]

Halgur wrote:

I had a player in a society game the other day playing a fighter that had used retraining to swap shield block for fleet. I and others at the table were unable to immediately provide him with a satisfactory reason why he cannot do this. In the end I just said 'not at my table'. What argument can I use to defend against someone wanting to lose shield block in favor of another general feat?

Easy : you cannot retrain a non-selectable class feature.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

The Shield Block that Fighters get is a class feature that grants them a general feat, and not just a general feat they get that it defaults to. As such, it takes the rules for Class Features in regards to retraining (and not the Feats rules).

Retraining Class Features wrote:

You can change a class feature that required a choice, making a different choice instead.

Retraining specifies that it only lets you change class features that require a choice to a different choice instead (which is honestly quite limited). The Shield Block feature that Fighters get is not a class feature with a choice, therefore it cannot be retrained based on this concept alone. Fighters also aren't the only classes that get free feats as class features which don't have a choice (such as the Inventor feat for, well, Inventors), and in that case the rule is also the same.

There is also this part of the Retraining rules:

Retraining wrote:

Some abilities can be difficult or impossible to retrain (for instance, a sorcerer can retrain their bloodline only in extraordinary circumstances).

A GM could simply say that the Shield Block that Fighters get from their feature is "impossible to retrain," and that's the end of it.

But this is all from the rulebook, of course. It is entirely possible that the society rules either outright state this isn't workable, or it could state that it actually is; given that I don't play society, nor am I familiar with all of its rules exceptions, it is quite feasible that they could legally do this within the rules of society play.

[Ascalaphus]

@Darksol no your reasons apply in PFS too. PFS in general tries to stay as close as possible to directly out of the book rules.

[Themetricsystem]

Yeah, they get Shield Block from their Class, not via a choice they made but by the sheer fact that this is the Class they chose, if they're following the rules, esp in PFS, they cannot Retrain that to something else.

Now, if they were playing a different Class and picked that as an actual General Feat they could Retrain it later on if they wish but that's not descriptive of what has been explained.

[Finoan]

Huh. This is at least new. I haven't heard anyone wanting to retrain a non-choosable class feature before.

Usually I see people wanting to retrain a redundant bonus feat. For example having the Pyre Tender background and taking Herbalist Dedication - which gives the Basic Alchemical Benefits and therefore gives Alchemical Crafting again. So they want to retrain one of their redundant Alchemical Crafting feats to something else.

Still, no. For the same reason. Getting Alchemical Crafting wasn't a primary choice in the build. It was a side-effect of a different primary choice. You could retrain the primary choice entirely (retrain to a different background, for example), but you don't get to retrain a bonus that you are given automatically even if it happens to also be a feat.

So same for retraining Shield Block from Fighter class features.

[Ascalaphus]

Finoan wrote:

Huh. This is at least new. I haven't heard anyone wanting to retrain a non-choosable class feature before.

Oh it's not that new. In PF1 weapon and armor proficiencies were framed as feats, so some people had the idea of training out of a heavy or medium armor proficiency that their fighter wasn't planning to use.

[Errenor]

Finoan wrote:

You could retrain the primary choice entirely (retrain to a different background, for example)

" You can’t retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or attribute modifiers."

[Finoan]

Errenor wrote:

Finoan wrote:

You could retrain the primary choice entirely (retrain to a different background, for example)

" You can’t retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or attribute modifiers."

Not normally.

[Captain Morgan]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The Shield Block that Fighters get is a class feature that grants them a general feat, and not just a general feat they get that it defaults to. As such, it takes the rules for Class Features in regards to retraining (and not the Feats rules).

Retraining Class Features wrote:

You can change a class feature that required a choice, making a different choice instead.

.

This is all you need to justify not allowing shield block to be retrained on fighters, but if you need additional fodder:

"When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat."

You couldn't choose a different feat than shield block when you created the character. You therefore can't replace the feat now.

[Elric200]

Is the player playing a two-weapon fighter or a two-handed weapon fighter?
if not shield block is one of the best feats that a fighter can have that is why it a class feature not a bonus feat. As the Gm you should point this out to him.

The above posters are right that you can't retrain a class feature.

[Halgur]

Elric200 wrote:

Is the player playing a two-weapon fighter or a two-handed weapon fighter?

if not shield block is one of the best feats that a fighter can have that is why it a class feature not a bonus feat. As the Gm you should point this out to him.

The above posters are right that you can't retrain a class feature.

He was fighting with a polearm and likely never planned to use a shield ever. I only noticed towards the end of the adventure and while he believed he was in the right he accepted the 'not at my table' ruling. I didn't want to hold up the game to research a proper counter to his argument of 'the book says I can swap a general feat for a general feat'. Next time he plays that character I should have a couple of proper arguments backed up by rules citations now.

Thanks everyone.

[Errenor]

Finoan wrote:

Errenor wrote:

Finoan wrote:

You could retrain the primary choice entirely (retrain to a different background, for example)

" You can’t retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or attribute modifiers."

Not normally.

Yeah, sure, there's nothing impossible in a game. But I thought we were talking about normal retraining. Without time warping and mind wiping :)

Though you could invent something less drastic for backgrounds: they are mechanical elements after all, so if you change the story in a way that makes recent events character's background, not distant ones (but which were still real and have happened), you could change even background.
Also, this is a custom campaign solution, and the question was about PFS.

[Finoan]

Yeah, for PFS I think you need a rebuild boon in order to change background or class.

I'm approaching the topic less about what is allowed in a particular campaign, and more what is allowed with the retraining rules. Retraining your Fighter class choice is allowed - though it takes a massive amount of in-game narrative justification for it. Retraining the Shield Block given by the Fighter Class is not allowed.