does Fatal change the die size of "extra" weapon damage dice?

[Twilight2k]

A discussion on Discord got me curious enough to bring it up here...

Page 279 in CRB has this rule under "Counting Damage Dice":

Quote:

Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune. They don’t count extra dice from abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like.

Would Fatal bump the die size of those "extra dice from abilities" that do not count as "weapon damage dice"?

My current view is no because those aren't really weapon damage dice. They are just extra dice of damage that are the same size as the weapon damage dice. If Fatal does increase their size, why don't they count when counting?

However, that brings up my more general gripe/question. If those are really weapon damage dice, they absolutely should count as such. If those aren't really weapon damage dice, they shouldn't be called weapon damage dice. As is, this is messy, unintuitive, and illogical. Since they don't "count", why weren't they called something else?

[ElementalofCuteness]

I would assume yes but that is because of how I see Fatal working. It changes the weapon die size to the number listed as well as adds 1 additional die. I would allow this to work with Power Attack or similar abilities if not then this is another point towards why Deadly is superior to fatal.

[Squiggit]

Twilight2k wrote:

However, that brings up my more general gripe/question. If those are really weapon damage dice, they absolutely should count as such. If those aren't really weapon damage dice, they shouldn't be called weapon damage dice. As is, this is messy, unintuitive, and illogical. Since they don't "count", why weren't they called something else?

I think you're overthinking it a bit. That whole sentence is just there to clarify that 'number of die' abilities are only meant to check the base number of die your attack has and not double dip from deadly or power attack.

[Twilight2k]

Squiggit wrote:

Twilight2k wrote:

However, that brings up my more general gripe/question. If those are really weapon damage dice, they absolutely should count as such. If those aren't really weapon damage dice, they shouldn't be called weapon damage dice. As is, this is messy, unintuitive, and illogical. Since they don't "count", why weren't they called something else?

I think you're overthinking it a bit. That whole sentence is just there to clarify that 'number of die' abilities are only meant to check the base number of die your attack has and not double dip from deadly or power attack.

I might be but I just don't follow the logic. They are explicitly weapon damage dice but they don't count as weapon damage dice... What? Are they weapon damage dice or not? To me at least, it would have been way better to simply allow potential double-dipping to keep the rules clean.

[ElementalofCuteness]

I agree honestly that it is weird to call it weapon damage die and not be considered them?

[SuperBidi]

Twilight2k wrote:

Would Fatal bump the die size of those "extra dice from abilities" that do not count as "weapon damage dice"?

It depends on the nature of the extra dice.

A feat like Power Attack specifically adds an "extra die of weapon damage", so Fatal would affect this one.
Now, extra dice from, say, Sneak Attack are definitely not affected by Fatal.