Looking over the Player Core, I've come across a bit of a contradiction. Calistria has been a deity of Vengeance for a while, and remains as so - one of her edicts is "take revenge".
However, listed in her anathema is "become too consumed by a need for revenge". Granted, there's an argument of 'seek vengeance but don't go overboard', but in previous content it mentions elves who follow Calistria playing the long game and seeking revenge through a lifetime; and such is described as well within Calistria's lines ((don't ask me which book this is in, I don't recall ><)).
So then, how does that balance out? Is there a point in seeking revenge where a follower is expected to just let it go?
No, her other anathema is "let a slight go unanswered", so I don't think she really has a problem in taking a long time in enacting your revenge, you just can't be boring and have that be the only thing in your mind (like at least get laid in the interim haha). iirc Gods and Magic also mentioned something about 'emotional distance' in her writeup and I think that really describes her overall vibe for me, given her disparate areas of concern.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the balance point is - if your revenge is also harming you or people you like, you are taking it too far. Revenge on those that deserve it. But not on yourself.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
It sounds like "let it go" is exactly what you're not supposed to do... but you're also not supposed to let it become the center of your life.
Revenge should be a hobby, not a vocation.
|
Looking over the Player Core, I've come across a bit of a contradiction. Calistria has been a deity of Vengeance for a while, and remains as so - one of her edicts is "take revenge".
However, listed in her anathema is "become too consumed by a need for revenge". Granted, there's an argument of 'seek vengeance but don't go overboard', but in previous content it mentions elves who follow Calistria playing the long game and seeking revenge through a lifetime; and such is described as well within Calistria's lines ((don't ask me which book this is in, I don't recall ><)).
So then, how does that balance out? Is there a point in seeking revenge where a follower is expected to just let it go?
Just a note that this anathema is not new to Remaster.
And become too consumed by love is also anathema to her.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Calistria believes in punishing a slight 'appropriately,' not seething over it all the time for the rest of your days. She's a fan of making your point and then moving on with your life.
Remember that she's a big reason so much of Elf culture is so mercurial.
[...]
So then, how does that balance out? Is there a point in seeking revenge where a follower is expected to just let it go?
Interesting philosophical and theological question. My interpretation of the calistrian way of how to tackle that balance would basically be like:
"Don't let even your vengeance lead you away from your own path." (Whatever this may be in your personal context.)Effectively: You may stick to your vengeance, but why making it all your life?!
There are some key phrases in Gods&Magic or older lore text that, IMO, bolster this interpretation. For instance:
- "[...] avoid becoming so wrapped up in their work that they lose sight of the other aspects of life that make it worth living."
- Or in the description of one aphorism, that "encourages followers to ensure their own needs are met before pursuing vengeance."
But what to do -- and that's the additional complication you interestingly brought up -- when you indeed want a long term vengeance actually be that path? (In the sense of "defining topic of your being".)
My assumption how she could answer it would be something like:
- "Are you sure you want your life to be that boring?!"
- "You want to play the long game, yes? Dedicate your life to some extraordinary special vendetta, have I heard? - Well, play then. But make sure you can play it till the end! Have fun in between. Throw in some distraction. For you and your target. Don't be easily guessable... Be a thrill... And then go for the kill. Or whatever you wanna' do with them ..."
- "If you thrill me with your vengeance, I might even partake. From time to time..." ;-)
- (In beguiling tone of voice:) "Send Arazni a kiss from me!" (With histrionic adoration.) "What a vigor! ... Always so critical of herself ... And that steely determination!" (Slight Shudder.) "Who wouldn't you faint in the face of this?!" (ambiguous smile)
More:
By chance (or maybe you already read), I recently wrote a bit of an homage(?) about Calistria. So if you like more flavor, you might find another amusing place, just round the corner: Just click and follow me....
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think a good example of the Calistrian idea of revenge is Inigo Montoya. Revenge is a clear focus of his character; it drives him throughout the story, and he doesn't give up until he obtains it. But it doesn't occupy his every waking moment. He's shown to have friendly relationships with people, to banter, to have a sense of humor, to have compassion for others. He's not chasing down the six-fingered man 24/7 and seething in a corner about how much he wants revenge. He's always on the lookout, but he also doesn't let it stop him from doing other things in the meantime.
I think Calistria would approve. :-)
Disagree.
When Inigo Montoya isn't actively seeking revenge, he is wasting away his life getting drunk. He does pretty much nothing else. And at the end when he finally accomplishes his task his final line is, 'now that it's over, I don't know what to do with the rest of my life.'
Sure, he doesn't START the story that way, learning it is part of his journey as a character. But I don't really agree that he does nothing else: he works for Vizzini, he befriends Fezzik, he helps Wesley.
I always viewed the "I don't know what to do with the rest of my life" line in the light of a burden being lifted, instead of despairing; he doesn't sound all that upset about it. Right after that, when Wesley says he'd make an excellent Dread Pirate Roberts, he chuckles and seems to be contemplating it.
But ymmv, of course.
Calistria believes in punishing a slight 'appropriately,' not seething over it all the time for the rest of your days. She's a fan of making your point and then moving on with your life.
Remember that she's a big reason so much of Elf culture is so mercurial.
[keftiu, Ninja'ed me. :-)]
I'd say thats pretty true in the calistrian way - and the interpretation what is "appropriately" allows for a nice diversity (and division ;-)) of that church.
As an addition concerning "long term revenge". It may exist, if that shall be your way. Yet, even (and perhaps especially!) a revenge whose end is not in sight, asks for more than exclusive pursuit.
For instance, we could think about the temple of Imvrildara and the sect of the Imvrildarai. They have been fighting for centuries to millennia against Treerazer and the demons, which devastated part of the elven homeland on Golarion. I guess that can be considered vengeance the very long run. But even they and their rather extreme dedication to vengeance and fighting - and maybe (pity) somewhat lacking approach to lust (symbolized by the tower of lust still in ruins?) - can only exist over long time if they do something more than just hunt and fight. And if it's just practicing alternative tactics, improving deceit, obtaining records and resources (whether scripture or alchemy) - caring for themselves and their monastry is a necessity if they want to stay able to pay back, ultimately.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think a good example of the Calistrian idea of revenge is Inigo Montoya. Revenge is a clear focus of his character; it drives him throughout the story, and he doesn't give up until he obtains it. But it doesn't occupy his every waking moment. He's shown to have friendly relationships with people, to banter, to have a sense of humor, to have compassion for others. He's not chasing down the six-fingered man 24/7 and seething in a corner about how much he wants revenge. He's always on the lookout, but he also doesn't let it stop him from doing other things in the meantime.
I think Calistria would approve. :-)
Vizzini picked him up off the street, "so slobbering drunk he couldn't buy brandy" and managed to get him moving again, probably with promises about helping him seek his vengeance. He had tremendous skill with the blade... which he'd developed entirely driven by his need for revenge. Once he lost Vizzini he was right back to being hopelessly drunk.... until Fezzick dried him out and got him moving again... in the direction of his revenge. He was capable of doing other things, but without that searing thread, he just fell apart... and in the extended version, it's revealed that he actually gave up true love, and a life that he would have been happy in, because of this pathological need to chase the six-fingered man to the ends of the earth and kill him.
Inigo Montoya took things rather further than Callistra would approve of.
Indeed - one of the Things about Callistra is that she's about dancing around and punishing [i]every[/o] slight. It's not about deep-dive dedication on a single life-defining vendetta. That's more an Arazni thing. It's about little stings every time someone takes things too far, to let them know that you aren't to be trifled with.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wish I could remember where it is - a PFS scenario, maybe? - but there's a story somewhere about a Calistrian engineering an elaborate public shaming of someone who had slighted her, and thus considered the matter resolved once it had been pulled off. The wound to her ego had been matched by one that taught the person responsible their lesson - now, back to enjoying life, and potentially even enjoying that person's company!
Again: elven goddess. This is a people who routinely live for centuries; holding a grudge for that long is a great way to tear your society apart.
I wish I could remember where it is - a PFS scenario, maybe? - but there's a story somewhere about a Calistrian engineering an elaborate public shaming of someone who had slighted her, and thus considered the matter resolved once it had been pulled off. The wound to her ego had been matched by one that taught the person responsible their lesson - now, back to enjoying life, and potentially even enjoying that person's company!
Again: elven goddess. This is a people who routinely live for centuries; holding a grudge for that long is a great way to tear your society apart.
I'd indeed say that generally allowing matters to be settled without unending grudge was an important factor for general elven well-being and decisively contributed to the relative peace and prosperity of Kyonin. Except maybe the Imvrildarai and the ongoing war against Treerazer and its demons. Then again, a demon lord that had turned one's former home into an abyssal nightmare - and continues to do so - is difficult to settle ...
As a devotee and from both a theological and a game-theoretic perspective I'd reiterate: It seems a rather smart deterrence to me, to both
* build a reputation that one will get back on sleights - and substantiate it with divine edicts - giving the strong signal of not allowing oneself to be exploited,
* while leaving it up to one's personal freedoms how this response will be. (Plus some additional individual decision what one considers a sleight in the first place.)