Save VS Needle of Vengeance

[Ravingdork]

It's not clear when the basic Will save is made or what the precise effects are. Does the target roll once at the start and apply to the entirety of the spell? Or do they roll the save each each time they take the damage?

[Red Metal]

Quote:

A long, jagged needle jabs into the target foe’s psyche whenever it tries to attack a creature your patron holds in special regard. Name yourself or one of your allies. The target takes 2 mental damage any time it uses a hostile action against the named creature, with a basic Will save.

Since the Will save mentioned as part of what happens when the target takes a hostile action, I'm pretty sure they make a save each time they take a hostile action, and the save only affects the damage they take from that specific hostile action. At the very least, that's how I'll be ruling it at my table.

[Dubious Scholar]

Yeah, this is an old one that never got a definitive answer. I've seen people going both ways on it. I feel like rolling each time makes more sense from the text and is also less susceptible to metagaming and such, though it's a bit of a pain for the GM.

[Baarogue]

What Red Metal quoted above is the Remastered wording of the spell. The original, APG wording lacked ", with a basic Will save." at the end, which is what made it "ambiguous." Now it is clear that the save is made when they take the damage. And they take the damage "any time it uses a hostile action against the named creature"

[Ravingdork]

Baarogue wrote:

What Red Metal quoted above is the Remastered wording of the spell. The original, APG wording lacked ", with a basic Will save." at the end, which is what made it "ambiguous." Now it is clear that the save is made when they take the damage. And they take the damage "any time it uses a hostile action against the named creature"

Thanks!

[Finoan]

Baarogue wrote:

What Red Metal quoted above is the Remastered wording of the spell. The original, APG wording lacked ", with a basic Will save." at the end, which is what made it "ambiguous." Now it is clear that the save is made when they take the damage. And they take the damage "any time it uses a hostile action against the named creature"

Yeah, that is how I see it too. The wording of the spell did change.

Previously it only had 'Basic Will' in the Saving Throw entry for the spell as a whole.

Now it has wording in the spell text itself:

Needle of Vengeance wrote:

The target takes 2 mental damage any time it uses a hostile action against the named creature, with a basic Will save.

Which definitely sounds more like rolling a separate save each time that the target takes damage from the spell.