Is a net a weapon?

[Sumshine]

Someone told me on the discord that nets are not weapons in pathfinder 2e, which seems weird to me. It is used to initiate a grapple, which is a type of strike action.

--The reason the classification matters to me is related to the post I made about weapon infusion. If it is a weapon, then I could make one that is an elemental blast, which was especially effective in a game that I was playing in. If it is not a weapon, then it must be a tool, so I would need to have the flash forge feat instead (albeit, it wouldn't count as a blast in that case). But I think a net should be a weapon, since the only listed purpose of it is to be used to make attacks.

(historically, nets were used by roman gladiators in one of their iconic loadouts. It wouldn't surprise me if they were used elsewhere.)

[HammerJack]

Grapple is not a type of Strike action, no. It is an action totally separate from Strike that also has the Attack trait, indicating that it adds to and is affected by Multiple Attack Penalty. And no, a net is not defined as a weapon in 2E.

[Sumshine]

Fair enough I guess, although I think it is very strange that pathfinder would define something that *only* has a design to make attack action as "not a weapon".

[breithauptclan]

Weapon Infusion doesn't let you turn your Elemental Blast actions into weapons. So whether a net is a weapon or not is somewhat irrelevant to the scenario in question anyway.

Weapon Infusion lets you describe your Elemental Blast as a weapon - whatever weapon you want (which you can kinda do with just Elemental Blast anyway). And Weapon Infusion lets you add some certain melee or ranged weapon traits to the Impulse.

But make no mistake. The action is most definitely still an Impulse attack, not a weapon Strike. There is no weapon. There is no Strike action.

I ran into this with my Kineticist and Rogue archetype. Pretty much everything in Rogue archetype is based on Strike with weapons. Sneak Attack - triggers on making a Strike action. Twin Feint - triggers when you make Strike actions. Brutal Beating - Strike. Quick Draw - weapons. Underhanded Assault - Strike.

None of these work with Kineticist Impulse actions or effects. And Weapon Infusion doesn't change that.

I'm probably going to rework my Kineticist to a different archetype after playing it in an actual game for a couple of days.

You could certainly shape your Elemental Blast into a net when attacking with it. You probably wouldn't even need to use Weapon Infusion for that. Since Grapple isn't on the list of weapon traits that you can add to the attack, it doesn't serve any mechanical difference to your 'net' Impulse attack.

TL;DR: Elemental Blast can look like a net. It just won't act like one.

[breithauptclan]

On the other hand, because a Net is an item instead of a weapon, then you are right that it does somewhat qualify for Flash Forge. You just have to justify how you are making one out of metal.

I would recommend describing it made out of small gauge chain in place of rope. You might be able to get your GM to agree to that. The Net item itself doesn't describe what it is made of. The only time rope is mentioned is as something that the Net could possibly be attached to.

[Baarogue]

Who's Annette?

[Sumshine]

This thread was created solely with the intention of verifying that nets are not weapons in pathfinder. I think that should be changed, since the only rules for it is an attack. How else would you define a weapon except by "its purpose is to attack someone or something else"?

[Pixel Popper]

Sumshine wrote:

This thread was created solely with the intention of verifying that nets are not weapons in pathfinder. I think that should be changed, since the only rules for it is an attack. How else would you define a weapon except by "its purpose is to attack someone or something else"?

The primary purpose of a net is to catch or hold things. Using a net to hoist cargo is not attacking things. Casting a net to catch fish is, regardless of some pedantic arguments to the contrary, not attacking the fish in the common use of the word.

A Net, in PF2E, is an item that permits the gladiator-style use(s) for grappling at reach or thrown to hamper an enemy, but it is not classified as a zero-damage weapon of any sort.

[Sumshine]

I strongly disagree with you.

You could use the same argument for a pick, sickle, kama, flail, hammers, and trident.

You could say that all of those have a tool version and a weapon version, but even then you would still have to say that the kua-toa and sahuagin barbed nets are weapons, which may or may not exist in pathfinder, but they easily could exist in pathfinder even if they don't have their own stats.

Gladiators fought to the death. The net was used as a tool to kill people. That isn't a pedantic argument.

But everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I've said my piece.

[shroudb]

Sumshine wrote:

This thread was created solely with the intention of verifying that nets are not weapons in pathfinder. I think that should be changed, since the only rules for it is an attack. How else would you define a weapon except by "its purpose is to attack someone or something else"?

Not everything with the Attack trait is an attack.

As an example, Escape also has the Attack trait, but you wouldn't call escaping someone's grasp an attack.

Grabbing someone by his clothes is a grapple check. Trapping him in a net is a grapple action. Both of those have the Attack trait.

But neither necesserily translates to "this is used to directly kill you". They are not weapons, but tools, that yes, can be used sometimes to assist in killing.

If they release an actual weapon like a barbed net with hooks that slash and maim the target, then yes, that would be a weapon. But the default net, isn't like that.

[breithauptclan]

Sumshine wrote:

You could use the same argument for a pick, sickle, kama, flail, hammers, and trident.

You forgot Frying Pan.

No, there really isn't any reason why a net couldn't be weaponized.

But the current one printed doesn't have a damage amount listed and isn't categorized as a weapon. Which means it doesn't interact as a weapon with abilities like Mind Smith.

You could also use a net as an Improvised Weapon and it would be considered a weapon for the actions during which you are attacking with it.

[Errenor]

breithauptclan wrote:

On the other hand, because a Net is an item instead of a weapon, then you are right that it does somewhat qualify for Flash Forge. You just have to justify how you are making one out of metal.

I would recommend describing it made out of small gauge chain in place of rope. You might be able to get your GM to agree to that. The Net item itself doesn't describe what it is made of. The only time rope is mentioned is as something that the Net could possibly be attached to.

There absolutely are flexible metal cables/ropes/lines, they are made from separate thin wires. So there's no need really to justify that. Even if Golarion doesn't have this technology (though I'm not sure about Alkenstar for example), metal kineticist definitely shouldn't have a problem with that at all. They are the expert.

[Farien]

Errenor wrote:

There absolutely are flexible metal cables/ropes/lines, they are made from separate thin wires. So there's no need really to justify that.

Ha HA haha hahaha. Because of course every last GM is going to allow metal nets. No need to present any justification whatsoever.

[Gisher]

Baarogue wrote:

Who's Annette?

The cutest Mouseketeer.

[Mer_]

shroudb wrote:

Not everything with the Attack trait is an attack.

Everything with the attack trait is an attack, but it may not be a strike.

A better thing to point out is that you do not need a weapon to make an attack (or a strike) since you have unarmed strikes and shield bash (technically not a weapon).

You can make a grapple four ways:
With a free hand, it is an attack and your hand is not a fist unarmed strike. If you have natural reach and hold the target so it couldn't attack you, it can attack your limb.
With a grapple weapon, gaining the traits of the weapon, including reach, this makes it a weapon attack.
With an unarmed strike with the grapple trait (ditto but like with a free hand the limb used can be attacked), this is an unarmed strike attack (but not a strike, "unarmed strike" is a keyword here).
With a tool, which includes both the net and a rope from the golden league xun rope mastery feat. This is different from grapple weapons because the tool cannot perform strike attacks (except if used as an improvised weapon) and is not made of special materials and thus is vulnerable to speding one action to cut it away for a quicker escape.