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My GM is currently ruling that you cannot cast multiple copies of a sustained spell. I can understand where he's coming from but he believes it to at least be RAI if not RAW. I'm wondering if anybody might have a source to support the RAI ruling. This will have some impact on my review of the Animist playtest.
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My GM is currently ruling that you cannot cast multiple copies of a sustained spell. I can understand where he's coming from but he believes it to at least be RAI if not RAW. I'm wondering if anybody might have a source to support the RAI ruling. This will have some impact on my review of the Animist playtest.The 'sustain a spell' actions seems to indicate you can have multiple sustained spells:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 304 4.0Concentrate
Requirements You have at least one spell active with a sustained duration, and you are not fatigued.
Choose one spell with a sustained duration you have in effect. The duration of that spell continues until the end of your next turn. Some spells might have slightly different or expanded effects if you sustain them. Sustaining a Spell for more than 10 minutes (100 rounds) ends the spell and makes you fatigued unless the spell lists a different maximum duration (such as “sustained up to 1 minute” or “sustained up to 1 hour”).
If your Sustain a Spell action is disrupted, the spell immediately ends.
No idea if this might change in the remaster.
I'm not really sure where the RaI assumption of it being disallowed comes from.
From my perspective, there's no real dissonance w/ dual-sustaining two of the same spell.
I'm imagining a Druid moving around two Aqueous Orbs, and it seems fine, and totally badass.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=669
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No idea if this might change in the remaster.My GM is currently ruling that you cannot cast multiple copies of a sustained spell. I can understand where he's coming from but he believes it to at least be RAI if not RAW. I'm wondering if anybody might have a source to support the RAI ruling. This will have some impact on my review of the Animist playtest.The 'sustain a spell' actions seems to indicate you can have multiple sustained spells:Source Core Rulebook pg. 304 4.0Concentrate
Requirements You have at least one spell active with a sustained duration, and you are not fatigued.Choose one spell with a sustained duration you have in effect. The duration of that spell continues until the end of your next turn. Some spells might have slightly different or expanded effects if you sustain them. Sustaining a Spell for more than 10 minutes (100 rounds) ends the spell and makes you fatigued unless the spell lists a different maximum duration (such as “sustained up to 1 minute” or “sustained up to 1 hour”).
If your Sustain a Spell action is disrupted, the spell immediately ends.
The playtest Animist is often sustaining several instances of their focus spell. If it was supposed to be impossible, I think someone would have mentioned it by now.
Not also that, unless specified otherwise in the spell, you can sustain the same spell several times each round.
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My GM is currently ruling that you cannot cast multiple copies of a sustained spell. I can understand where he's coming from but he believes it to at least be RAI if not RAW. I'm wondering if anybody might have a source to support the RAI ruling. This will have some impact on my review of the Animist playtest.
Houseruling Animist so that they can't sustain multiple copies of Earth's Bile hitting the same target three times per round kinda makes sense. But only for wanting to play the playtest class for an actual game - not for playtesting. For the playtest you should sample the cheese so that you can report on it accurately.
But as a general rule, preventing casting of the same sustained spell a second time is absolutely not RAW. Nothing in the rules indicates that this doesn't work.
And it is not RAI either.
One piece of evidence for that is in the Bard class and the Composition cantrips. They have specific wording causing a previous composition to end if a second one is cast. So you couldn't have two instances of Healing Hymn active at the same time. This restriction would not be as necessary - and would be worded differently - if it was intended that you couldn't cast the same sustained spell multiple times.
As has been mentioned by others in this thread, the wording of Sustain a Spell indicates that it is possible to have multiple active spells that all need to be sustained. Though that doesn't necessarily prove that they could potentially be the same sustained spell cast multiple times.
But the most compelling argument that casting the same sustained-duration spell repeatedly is the new Remastered Light spell. Each time you sustain the spell you can move one of the lights. And you can have up to four lights cast at a time.
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The duplicate effects rule is about things like multiple buffs or debuffs. If someone is using two spells slots to cast two burning spheres and using two actions each round to force two saves, why is that two good to be true?
If you're letting a playtest PC in your game for the long run, I would suggest adding a trait similar to the Hex or Composition trait to the focus spells, only allowing one of them to be cast or sustained each round, and casting a second one ends the first. That's a pretty fair compromise, and honestly should be in the class when it fully releases. Also make sure to use the survey to tell Paizo about your feedback.
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So I belive I'm the OPs GM. My ruling against multiple instances of the same spell comes from a combination of the rule prohibiting duplicate effects, and the "too good to be true" clause of the rule regarding ambiguous Rules. In this case the effect of sustaining Earth's Bile grants you the ability to drop its AoE. A second casting would override the first casting. You could sustain the first casting and then cast it again to lay down two AoEs in one turn but the first casting would end at that point. The new light spell only strengthens the argument for this since it is an example of the specific overriding the general. Finally I have other players in my game who are not playtesting. So I have to balance their enjoyment of the game against that of what I see as a broken interpretation of the playtest class.
It is not the interpretation of the playtest class that is broken. Sustaining multiple Earth's Bile is perfectly RAW.
It's Earth Bile itself that needs to be redesigned to take into account what you saw.
You can have a look at the playtest board for Animist. Earth Bile being OP in its current version has been clearly identified and some possible solutions have been proposed by posters.
And yes, please answer the survey. Your feedback will be extremely valuable to get a better Animist (and Earth Bile) in the final version.
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I have other players in my game who are not playtesting. So I have to balance their enjoyment of the game against that of what I see as a broken interpretation of the playtest class.
Yes, if you are playing an actual game instead of a playtest, then fixing Earth's Bile because that spell is too good to be true is fine.
Either having one casting of Earth's Bile end an existing instance (bard composition style), or by having overlapping areas only damage a creature once per round at most (Meteor Swarm style).
But being able to cast multiple of the same spell is definitely allowed. And it doesn't matter what duration the spell has. This ruling would be a huge nerf to Witch, for example. Why shouldn't a Witch be able to use Evil Eye on two or three enemies at the same time? Or Needle of Vengeance twice to protect one target against two attackers? Or Malicious Shadow on two different targets? Or spell slot spells even. How about Grasping Earth to guard both entrances to the room?
In short, don't nerf everything because of one playtest spell. Nerf that one spell.