Hello everyone.
I don't know if Paizo's staff will ever read these posts but I created this topic so that we can center our comments on what to add or modify the Soldier so that it's easier to see.
The soldier should not be a Fighter in space. I agree, but I also think he should be good with weapons or armor and be focused on weapon traits and adding more effect for them. One of the best examples of this is Starfinder's Shock and Awe. Many of these fighting styles from SF1e can now be converted into feats due to the PF2e structure, this is great, we can have more than "two" Fighting styles.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency - Since the Soldier is supposed to take a beating, maybe it would be good to give him the same proficiency as Paladins. Being Legendary in Heavy Armor and Master in weapons in top levels.
Soldier Class Feature:
Unwieldy and Area Weapons: You use your body to stabilize these weapons before making an attack. You may use your Constitution modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifiers.
Soldier Feat:
Burst Fire - 2Actions, when using automatic weapons this allows you to make 3 ranged strikes against a single target using your gun, each attack will be made with a penalty, and the 3-shot ammunition is spent even if the target dies in the first ranged strike, if you don't have ammunition for burst fire the remaining shots are not fired but, penalty to attack still apply.
There's a lot here that I like, and can very much agree with!
The soldier should not be a Fighter in space. I agree, but I also think he should be good with weapons or armor and be focused on weapon traits and adding more effect for them. One of the best examples of this is Starfinder's Shock and Awe. Many of these fighting styles from SF1e can now be converted into feats due to the PF2e structure, this is great, we can have more than "two" Fighting styles.
I fully agree with this. I think many current fighting styles are better-suited as feats, and those that are meant to enable a completely different build, like Close Quarters, ought to be supported with more fleshed-out subclasses.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency - Since the Soldier is supposed to take a beating, maybe it would be good to give him the same proficiency as Paladins. Being Legendary in Heavy Armor and Master in weapons in top levels.
I could get behind this. One interesting quirk about the Soldier is that despite being a martial class, and despite being a tank, the class only has one starting expert saving throw proficiency: perhaps HP is meant to be the extra-strong defense, but I'd say legendary Fort and AC in combination would go a long way towards making the class feel like a walking tank.
Soldier Class Feature:
Unwieldy and Area Weapons: You use your body to stabilize these weapons before making an attack. You may use your Constitution modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifiers.
I'd really like to see something like this. In general, I think the Soldier ought to be able to specialize in certain weapons, particularly big, heavy weapons that are too cumbersome for most others to use effectively. We haven't seen too many unwieldy weapons yet, but a feature like this that would make the Soldier especially good with unwieldy weapons would cater to their theme.
The one quibble I'd have, however, is that I'm personally not a fan of replacing every mod with Con mod. I don't think it's terribly interesting to make any character super-SAD, and I'd rather have attributes do what they're supposed to. What I'd do instead is allow the class to spec into a certain distribution of attributes: you can have your big bulky Soldier with lots of Strength, but then you could have a Dex-based soldier who'd be more able to opt into Intelligence or Charisma as a fourth score.
Soldier Feat:
Burst Fire - 2Actions, when using automatic weapons this allows you to make 3 ranged strikes against a single target using your gun, each attack will be made with a penalty, and the 3-shot ammunition is spent even if the target dies in the first ranged strike, if you don't have ammunition for burst fire the remaining shots are not fired but, penalty to attack still apply.
This is perhaps the one suggestion I'd disagree with, for pretty much the reverse reason behind the whole AoE weapon problem: with AoE weapons, their implementation is intended to avoid making the Fighter and Gunslinger amazing at at-will AoE damage in addition to the single-target damage of the weapons they usually wield. Questionable as the current implementation is, the motivations behind it are valid, in my opinion. This feat, by contrast, I think incurs the reverse problem where the Soldier, an AoE class by default, could become very good at single-target damage. Perhaps I'm overreacting, given how the Fighter and Gunslinger can opt into some pretty good AoE feats and not dominate there, but I'd say that any sort of double-tap feat focused on single-target damage likely ought to be reserved for levels higher than what we have now.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency - Since the Soldier is supposed to take a beating, maybe it would be good to give him the same proficiency as Paladins. Being Legendary in Heavy Armor and Master in weapons in top levels.I could get behind this. One interesting quirk about the Soldier is that despite being a martial class, and despite being a tank, the class only has one starting expert saving throw proficiency: perhaps HP is meant to be the extra-strong defense, but I'd say legendary Fort and AC in combination would go a long way towards making the class feel like a walking tank.
Yeah, you are probably right, besides if all Soldiers use Constitution they will probably end up looking like the Vanguard. Better leave Constitution out of the attack equation.
Soldier Class Feature:
Unwieldy and Area Weapons: You use your body to stabilize these weapons before making an attack. You may use your Constitution modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifiers.I'd really like to see something like this. In general, I think the Soldier ought to be able to specialize in certain weapons, particularly big, heavy weapons that are too cumbersome for most others to use effectively. We haven't seen too many unwieldy weapons yet, but a feature like this that would make the Soldier especially good with unwieldy weapons would cater to their theme.
The one quibble I'd have, however, is that I'm personally not a fan of replacing...
They could have this feat at a higher level, similar to Reaction Strike (Old attack of opportunity), it's basic for the fighter but, it's a level 6 feat for the Paladin and Barbarian if I'm not mistaken. Another point is that if their Proficiency is not as good as the fighter it will be basically him spraying bullets at a single target (with no accuracy). This feat could give him 3 attacks using the second multiple-attack penalty. It probably would work like spending 3 actions attacking with 0 -5 and -10, but saving one action.
I gave this suggestion because there is no Short Burst on Starfinder, I mean on SF1e you have to squeeze the trigger until you are out of ammo perhaps with feat you can take the finger out of the trigger to save ammo.
The soldier's Con CAS does feel strange. It has the side-effect of giving them a lower to-hit ceiling than the other martials do, meaning your trained space marine soldier is less likely to score on the shooting range than your rogue who never had military training a day in their life. The difference is only 5% most of the time I'll grant, but it still feels weird.
I like the idea that the soldier is meant to take loads of punishment though, and Con does really sell that idea.
Heh. This makes a little sense if you see soldiers’ training as ‘good enough for government work’ — you know how to shoot good and can control the machinegun for effect but you’re not a designated marksthing.
Heh. This makes a little sense if you see soldiers’ training as ‘good enough for government work’ — you know how to shoot good and can control the machinegun for effect but you’re not a designated marksthing.
Huh. I was thinking that this would suggest a class path for those soldiers that are designated marksthings, but that's not quite right, is it? The squad's designated sniper would probably be an Operative.
Heh. This makes a little sense if you see soldiers’ training as ‘good enough for government work’ — you know how to shoot good and can control the machinegun for effect but you’re not a designated marksthing.Huh. I was thinking that this would suggest a class path for those soldiers that are designated marksthings, but that's not quite right, is it? The squad's designated sniper would probably be an Operative.
Yeah that's what I think to. And a Tactician type would probably be an Envoy
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I'm looking for the ability to either destroy cover or otherwise strongly encourage enemies to leave cover. That's something I would want my "heavy" to be able to do.
I'm looking for the ability to either destroy cover or otherwise strongly encourage enemies to leave cover. That's something I would want my "heavy" to be able to do.
I think there is something like that in Starfinder but I think it was too complicated because you had to know the material, the GM would specify hardness and such... not practical.
Demolish cover would be a nice name for it lol. BOOOOOOM!
I think X-com 2 Grenadier has some skills like that. It would be awesome if they took some inspiration from that game.
Maybe you could make it more psychological? Like maybe you're not actually going to chew through that shipping crate with your gatling laser, but the person hiding behind it doesn't necessarily know that, and the fact that you keep hosing down the thing they're hiding behind with ordnance is unnerving. You have an ability that targets an enemy in cover that makes them frightened if they choose to stay in that same cover.
I'm looking for the ability to either destroy cover or otherwise strongly encourage enemies to leave cover. That's something I would want my "heavy" to be able to do.
More crowd control/area denial options would also be great. It is the main purpose of several of their main weapon types - machine guns, flame throwers and several of the more esoteric types - and would complement the kit very well.
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One thing I just noticed - Suppressive Fire also affects allies. The save against damage is fine, but also heavily debuffing your allies seems like a lot.
One thing I just noticed - Suppressive Fire also affects allies. The save against damage is fine, but also heavily debuffing your allies seems like a lot.
Then I think it's a miswording problem. Because the paragraph starts with "You have a knack for using powerful weapons to hinder your
foes and prevent them from operating at their peak."English is not my main language but ain't foes supposed to be your enemies?
One thing I just noticed - Suppressive Fire also affects allies. The save against damage is fine, but also heavily debuffing your allies seems like a lot.Then I think it's a miswording problem. Because the paragraph starts with "You have a knack for using powerful weapons to hinder your
foes and prevent them from operating at their peak."
English is not my main language but ain't foes supposed to be your enemies?
Yes, they are, though sometimes your allies can be even worse ;).
On a more serious note, this could go either way. This has happened quite a number of times in PF2 and even other games, so drawing definitive conclusions is basically impossible.
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One thing I just noticed - Suppressive Fire also affects allies. The save against damage is fine, but also heavily debuffing your allies seems like a lot.Friendly fire isn't.
Heh. Now I want a feat or class feature or something called "To whom it may concern" that picks one target at random out of a group that you're slamming with area effect and deals extra damage to them in particular.
"It's not the bullet with your name on it you need to worry about."
I suppose it might also work as a boost to crit damage when targeting multiple enemies with an area effect.
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One thing I just noticed - Suppressive Fire also affects allies. The save against damage is fine, but also heavily debuffing your allies seems like a lot.Friendly fire isn't.Heh. Now I want a feat or class feature or something called "To whom it may concern" that picks one target at random out of a group that you're slamming with area effect and deals extra damage to them in particular.
"It's not the bullet with your name on it you need to worry about."
I suppose it might also work as a boost to crit damage when targeting multiple enemies with an area effect.
Hahahaha that's cool