When effect areas are flat and when three-dimensional?


Rules Discussion


All definitions of areas are three-dimensional at base: 'in all directions'. Well, apart from cones (which is another problem).
But rather frequently spell designers forget that, and make spells and effects which by description should be on the ground only. Most earth area spells, or area plant spells, for example. And never specify height of the effect, by the way. What is the height of Black Tentacles, for example?
It's not fun at all when you remember that flying creatures appear very frequently, and not only at high levels.
When I play I consider effects three-dimensional whenever possible, unless there isn't any way at all to justify this. So my Black Tentacles are three-dimensional and affect flyers in full burst. Who can forbid creepy magical black tentacles from nowhere to grow 20ft above ground?
How do you rule?


Case by case. But I tend in general to consider that effects are 3-dimensional as much as possible, as this is RAW. Even if it may sound illogical, but there's no reason to consider that the black tentacles emerge from the ground all over the burst area and not from the center of the burst area.


SuperBidi wrote:
Even if it may sound illogical, but there's no reason to consider that the black tentacles emerge from the ground all over the burst area and not from the center of the burst area.

Well, there is a little bit: 'adjacent to a flat surface' and 'rise up'. https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=23

That is mostly imagery though, but height question is not. Though, tentacles from the center tangle/void/hole in the air are actually terrifying (and also more RAW, if talking about origin point). I think I'd even borrow this image :)


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It's funny how this issue with flavor text comes back over and over again!

But I've missed the flat surface of the area, so it seems pretty clear they are supposed to emerge from the surface.
Sadly, I also like the tentacles coming from the center of the burst :D


It is not flavour text. It is in the stats block.


Yes. So it definitely targets all locations inside a spherical 20 foot burst that are also adjacent to a flat surface such as a wall or the ceiling.


Areas and Dimensions
Default is 3 dimensional unless otherwise specified.

Regarding earth spells, they have the trait

Earth wrote:
Effects with the earth trait either manipulate or conjure earth. Those that manipulate earth have no effect in an area without earth. Creatures with this trait consist primarily of earth or have a magical connection to that element. Planes with this trait are mostly solid, with caverns and other hollow pockets.

As such, Earth cone effects would still extend into the ground (provided the effect produced ignores Line of Effect), but unless a creature is burrowed, or otherwise underground, its irrelevant. Additionally, the Earth cone would, typically, not extend into the air because it is a square without earth and thus has no effect - as per the Earth trait.

Conversely, Fire effects would not extend into the ground, because Line of Effect is blocked by a solid physical barrier, but would extend into the air.

Cone effects follow the same 1,3,3 or 1,2,3 cone area (for a 15-foot cone) when determining height, when necessary.

Notably 20ft burst does not mean a 20ft radius cylinder; just because a creature is 20ft in the air, does not mean it would be hit by a 20ft burst, unless it was centered directly below the creature.

Errenor wrote:
The little bit: 'adjacent to a flat surface' and 'rise up'

Seems to imply, for similar reasons that a Fire spell effect does not travel into the ground, Black Tentacles only emits a burst in a singular direction - up (GM discretion: 'up' vs 'away from the surface').

Surface Definition
The structure trait provides several examples of a surface. Notably, it explicitly defines 'water and other nonsolids' as a surface, but does not explicitly say that air is one. So with a very liberal reading of the RAW, a GM could allow it if they wanted to consider it a 'nonsolid surface'.

Ruling
I would consider air, water, earth, etc. to be mediums through which an effect travels and the surface to be where that medium changes. You could not place Black Tentacles inside the mediums, but you could place it on the surfaces - notably only non-vertical ones since the spell only travels up (a more liberal reading of the rules could say 'away' from the surface instead of only up, subject to GM discretion). As such, barring extraneous circumstances, such as an upside-down world or a zone affected by Reverse Gravity, the spell would always be travelling up into the air from a more solid surface such as water, earth, metal, etc.

TLDR

  • Air isnt a surface, so Black tentacles cant have its origin be in the air.
  • It only travels up (GM Discretion)
  • It affects a 20ft radius semisphere from the origin.


DesEuler wrote:
Notably 20ft burst does not mean a 20ft radius cylinder; just because a creature is 20ft in the air, does not mean it would be hit by a 20ft burst, unless it was centered directly below the creature.

Yep, assumed so from the beginning. There's an additional difficulty there with different heights, yes.

Other interesting examples:
Web ( https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=374 ) 'a sticky web in the area' but 'Squares filled with the web' (10-foot burst)
Rouse skeletons ( https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=988 ) 'erupt from a solid surface' but 'fill the burst' (10-foot burst)
Lightning Storm ( https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=701 ) has a bit different problem, that the game actually needs cylindrical areas sometimes :( Because, where is the cloud, and does the spell really don't affect creatures above 20-burst when 'the bolt is a vertical line from the top of the storm cloud to the ground below'?


Errenor wrote:
... that the game actually needs cylindrical areas sometimes ...

Flame Strike: "Area 10-foot radius, 40-foot-tall cylinder."

If the AoE is supposed to be a cylinder, it looks like they spell that out (at least sometimes).

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