Or vice versa?
Every GM I've played under has said yes, until tonight.
Tonight the GM seemed to be under the impression that a character could not assist themselves. I argued that summoners and eidolons were separate creatures and that their working together was supported by abilities like Act Together and the ability to independently take Exploration Activities.
He agreed that they were distinct creatures, but held his ground that they were the same character, and that Aid had nothing to do with Exploration Activities.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It doesn't matter if they're the same character/PC, it matters if they're the same creature, which they aren't. They even have different stats and sometimes different skills, but more importantly different bodies (for say Athletics to push a door down) and different minds (like say to act as a sounding board for a Recall Knowledge check). The fact their actions are linked and one controls the other doesn't override any of that (nor would it for a Minion creature with similar limitations).
Hopefully this GM was merely reacting to an unknown situation with an over-conservative knee-jerk ruling and can rule more reasonably once considering the elements at hand and how all the constituent parts exist.
Or...maybe it's an issue of mechanical balance, where one player being able to Aid their own PC simply rings alarm bells. IMO that's part of the "two creatures" advantage of a Summoner, something their power budget & vulnerabilities pay for.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's nothing in the eidolon rules that state they can't aid each other. That GM is wrong.
What they can't do is aid during a skill challenge in PFS, as at that point you must pick only one of the two to participate. In combat however, they can Aid just fine. Just remember you still only have one reaction, even if the Eidolon is the one to use it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For what it is worth, I also allow Summoner/Eidolon to use Aid on each other - both in and out of combat.
But that isn't worth much. As Cordell mentioned, PFS doesn't allow both to participate in skill challenges. And your GM for that game has given their ruling for that game. I am not able to override either of those.
Any creature with reactions can Aid even when controlled by same player you just need to prepare and justify this:
You try to help your ally with a task. To use this reaction, you must first prepare to help, usually by using an action during your turn. You must explain to the GM exactly how you’re trying to help, and they determine whether you can Aid your ally.
It's up to you whether someone's preparation is enough to let them Aid an ally. The preparation should be specific to the task at hand. Helping someone hold a lockpick steady might be enough preparation to Aid an attempt to Pick a Lock, but just saying you're going to “encourage” them likely wouldn't. Second, the character who is attempting to Aid needs to be in a proper position to help, and able to convey any necessary information. Helping a character Climb a wall is pretty tough if the character a PC wishes to Aid is nowhere near them. Similarly, a character usually needs to be next to their ally or a foe to Aid the ally in attacking the foe. You'll also need to determine how long the preparation takes. Typically, a single action is sufficient to help with a task that's completed in a single round, but to help someone perform a long-term task, like research, the character has to help until the task is finished.
You can even Aid companions, familiars and summons. But due the lack of reactions these minions can't Aid you.
Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature. A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands. For an animal companion, you Command an Animal; for a minion that's a spell or magic item effect, like a summoned minion, you Sustain a Spell or Sustain an Activation; if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command as a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits. If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don't act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please. A minion can't control other creatures.
But some familiars have some Familiar Abilities that allows it to help with aid:
Your familiar knows how to act cute or focused on cue, helping you make a good impression. Despite being a minion, your familiar gains 1 reaction at the start of its turns, which it can use only to Aid you on a Diplomacy check to Make an Impression (it still has to prepare to help you as normal for the Aid reaction, which requires it to participate throughout the activity). It automatically succeeds at its check to Aid you with those skills or automatically critically succeeds if you're a master of the skill in question.
Your familiar is your criminal associate. Despite being a minion, your familiar gains 1 reaction at the start of its turns, which it can use only to Aid you on a Deception or Thievery skill check (it still has to prepare to help you as normal for the Aid reaction). It automatically succeeds at its check to Aid you with those skills or automatically critically succeeds if you're a master of the skill in question.
Your familiar is your academic confidant. Despite being a minion, your familiar gains 1 reaction at the start of its turns, which it can use only to Aid you on a Recall Knowledge skill check for a skill in which it has the skilled familiar ability (it still has to prepare to help you as normal for the Aid reaction). It automatically succeeds at its check to Aid you with those skills or automatically critically succeeds if you're a master of the skill in question. Your familiar must have the skilled ability to select this.
Your familiar keeps its eyes and ears open, ready to relay every snippet of gossip it catches, helping you gather information. Despite being a minion, your familiar gains 1 reaction at the start of its turns, which it can use only to Aid you on a Diplomacy check to Gather Information (it still has to prepare to help you as normal for the Aid reaction, which requires it to participate throughout the activity). It automatically succeeds at its check to Aid you with those skills or automatically critically succeeds if you're a master of the skill in question.
I hope this informations may help you to convince your GM that the game allows and even predict and have some rules that allows same player that controls more than one creature at time can benefit from Aid between them.
What they can't do is aid during a skill challenge in PFS, as at that point you must pick only one of the two to participate. In combat however, they can Aid just fine. Just remember you still only have one reaction, even if the Eidolon is the one to use it.
Thanks for the info everyone.
This was a PFS skill challenge in this instance.
Can someone please cite the source or link to that particular PFS rule?
I'm also curious to know the rational behind such a rule, if anyone knows it. PFS GMs let PCs aid other PCs in said skill challenges all the time, so I don't see how eidolons being prohibited is logically justifiable, at least within the context of inworld explanations.
It really takes me out of the immersive story telling.
Can someone please cite the source or link to that particular PFS rule?
OK. Took a while to find. It isn't in the guidebook for playing PFS. It is in the Character Options instructions for how to gain access to things. Specifically for the Secrets of Magic book down in the 'Options Listing By Book' at the very bottom. There is, for each book, a 'Rulings and Clarifications' section.
The one for Secrets of Magic has this to say about Eidolons.
Eidolons: Eidolons are not PCs, so they do not count as PCs for effects that scale based on the number of PCs or players.
Eidolons and summoners share a pool of actions. As a result, for Victory Point/success counting systems that allow each PC a limited number of chances to roll, either the summoner or the eidolon can attempt each check. The summoner's player chooses for each attempt which of the two rolls. Any direct consequences of failure apply to whichever creature rolled the check.
This rule does not mean that in general only one of the summoner or eidolon need to roll to deal with adverse situations. If everyone in a room needs to attempt a saving throw against a hazard, both the eidolon and the summoner need to attempt that saving throw. If every PC needs to overcome a particular obstacle in order to continue (such as crossing a chasm), the eidolon and summoner both need to get past the obstacle.
I'm also curious to know the rational behind such a rule, if anyone knows it. PFS GMs let PCs aid other PCs in said skill challenges all the time, so I don't see how eidolons being prohibited is logically justifiable, at least within the context of inworld explanations.
It really takes me out of the immersive story telling.
That - I don't know.
Can someone please cite the source or link to that particular PFS rule?OK. Took a while to find. It isn't in the guidebook for playing PFS. It is in the Character Options instructions for how to gain access to things. Specifically for the Secrets of Magic book down in the 'Options Listing By Book' at the very bottom. There is, for each book, a 'Rulings and Clarifications' section.
So both the eidolon and the summoner can't both attempt the same check for the same skill challenge victory point. I need to choose who rolls the check? In other words, I don't get two chances versus everyone else's single chance at the same immediate goal. That makes sense.
But they could both make separate unrelated attempts, one each on different checks, for different victory points? For example, if trying to slow a pursuing enemy through the city, the eidolon could make an Athletics check to topple a bunch of crates into their path and the summoner could make a Diplomacy check to ask bystanders to distract the pursuers.
And they could both still Aid each other on the same skill challenge (at least insomuch as other characters can Aid each other)? In the above scenario, this would be the eidolon and summoner both pushing over a stack of crates to stymie their pursuers. One primary check, one Aid), but only one result/victory point on the line for that player.
And if there isn't a limit to the number of rolls, both can make whatever checks are necessary without limits?
In any case, I don't see anything in breithauptclan's rules quote that prevents Aid actions specifically, even in PFS skill challenges. Were you referring to a different rule perhaps, Cordell Kintner?
PFS skill challenges are often written in such a way: each PC roll a whatever check, if half the PCs succeed they succeed at the challenge.
It's obvious that in such a case having an Eidolon is equivalent to having an extra PC in the party without having to score more successes.
Overall, I dislike PFS skill challenges that are a very poor attempt at making skills useful by losing everyone's time. Roughly, the GM an handle the challenge without the players as players only contribution to the challenge is to roll the die.
|
|
Can someone please cite the source or link to that particular PFS rule?
Character Options, under Clarifications for Secrets of Magic:
Eidolons are not PCs, so they do not count as PCs for effects that scale based on the number of PCs or players.
Eidolons and summoners share a pool of actions. As a result, for Victory Point/success counting systems that allow each PC a limited number of chances to roll, either the summoner or the eidolon can attempt each check. The summoner's player chooses for each attempt which of the two rolls. Any direct consequences of failure apply to whichever creature rolled the check.
This rule does not mean that in general only one of the summoner or eidolon need to roll to deal with adverse situations. If everyone in a room needs to attempt a saving throw against a hazard, both the eidolon and the summoner need to attempt that saving throw. If every PC needs to overcome a particular obstacle in order to continue (such as crossing a chasm), the eidolon and summoner both need to get past the obstacle.
PFS skill challenges are often written in such a way: each PC roll a whatever check, if half the PCs succeed they succeed at the challenge.
It's obvious that in such a case having an Eidolon is equivalent to having an extra PC in the party without having to score more successes.Overall, I dislike PFS skill challenges that are a very poor attempt at making skills useful by losing everyone's time. Roughly, the GM an handle the challenge without the players as players only contribution to the challenge is to roll the die.
If one of the players has a better idea/tool/ability/spell/whatever than rolling one if the listed skill checks the GM can adjudicate the outcome of their creative solution, instead, and I have seen that happen a fair number of times, that just rolling the die was definitely not the players only contribution, from both sides of the GM screen. It is actually a common occurrence, not a hypothetical edge case.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All I can tell you is that if you think that the GM ruled incorrectly, that you should take it up the PFS leadership ladder. Debating it out with me isn't going to be useful.
If one of the players has a better idea/tool/ability/spell/whatever than rolling one if the listed skill checks the GM can adjudicate the outcome of their creative solution, instead, and I have seen that happen a fair number of times, that just rolling the die was definitely not the players only contribution, from both sides of the GM screen. It is actually a common occurrence, not a hypothetical edge case.
I experienced 2 skill challenges being broken by the players, one ended up as an automatic success, the other one as an automatic failure.
But I've seen countless GMs forbidding "creative" solutions. I say "creative" because using a rope to lift the low Athletics characters instead of climbing the cliff is not really "creative", it's just common sense. But no, everyone had to roll the Athletics check because the god of PFS said so.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A GM might rule on any specific case. PGS campaign rules do not forbid using alternate solutions to what a scenario expects. That is explicit in the campaign rules.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A GM might rule on any specific case. PGS campaign rules do not forbid using alternate solutions to what a scenario expects. That is explicit in the campaign rules.
So, if there's an Athletics check to Climb a cliff, and the players decide that they'll send the Barbarian/Fighter up the cliff and then lift the others with ropes, how do you "rule" that?
My experience has been that the GM made up a time constraint forcing us to all climb it.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As something handled by GM discretion, there is no fixed answer.
Maybe there is a time constraint, and going separately gets the worse outcome (some scenario mechanics have that sort of thing going on, where failures in skill challenges take longer and affect some encounter later, and the time mattering in some way or another is pretty commonly the reason for climbing an obstacle to be set up as this sort of skill challenge).
If there's some encounter at the top, you might end up with a divided party and a bad situation.
In any case like that where trying to make totally separate ascents would be an issue, it might be better to just use Follow The Expert mechanics instead.
Maybe there's no reason for any of that trouble, and you have the characters at the top make Athletics checks, with a crit fail dropping the person being hacked up, instead the person who rolls a crit fail falling, like a climb check. Whether any of that makes sense depends on specifics of why that climb is being handled as the type of skill challenge it is and what happens with different numbers of group successes.
Maybe something entirely different. I'm not going to make some attempt to list every possible way someone might rule, because there would be no purpose to it.
A GM might rule on any specific case. PGS campaign rules do not forbid using alternate solutions to what a scenario expects. That is explicit in the campaign rules.So, if there's an Athletics check to Climb a cliff, and the players decide that they'll send the Barbarian/Fighter up the cliff and then lift the others with ropes, how do you "rule" that?
My experience has been that the GM made up a time constraint forcing us to all climb it.
IIt's up to GM. But myself will probably rule as the player on top of the cliff using Athletics again instead of the player that's being pulled. If they players have the caution of carring ropes or Climbing Kits I don't see this being too problematic allowing they using creativity.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
And again, there's nothing about Aid here. I'm inclined to think there's no such rule and Ravingdork's GM simply ruled wrong.
First off, these challenges typically don't allow anyone to aid, everyone must make their own check. In rare cases, Aiding is allowed, but typically in place of making a check of your own.
Second, these challenges only take into account the number of PCs, not which class they are. No class should have an innate advantage in these sorts of challenges. If it is allowed in these instances to aid an eidolon, or for a eidolon to aid you, then there ends up being a huge advantage to having an eidolon. That would lead to every PC having an eidolon, just to aid on such checks.
The OPF does not want character options that are "must haves". Eidolons have plenty of benefits, but allowing them to aid in those situations essentially gives you a permanent +1 to +3 boost to your skill that isn't accounted for in writing scenarios, and if it is then those without eidolons are at a disadvantage.
This is why when you engage in these kinds of challenges, you pick one of the two and make a check, and the other basically voids out until the next check.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No class should have an innate advantage in these sorts of challenges.
I don't know how you could fairly adjudicate that. My rogue has an innate advantage in a number of skill challenges because she has more skills and more skill feats than anyone else.
My wizard has an innate advantage in any skill challenge they can use lore, arcana, or occultism because their class features run on INT, so I have like a +3 or 4 over everyone else in the party basically for free (the barbarian they typically play with would be crippling their build trying to get their arcana that high).
My alchemist gets to substitute crafting for medicine in all situations, again effectively giving me free skill increases (and therefore more bonuses) over other classes. She can also contextually hand out bigger bonuses from mutagens (circumstances pending).
My investigator gets a free +1 if the skill check is relevant to his current Lead, without even having to roll like if someone was aiding.
Many of these are as or even more significant than an aid check, particularly at low to mid levels. Should we be voiding these things as well, to make skill challenges more fair?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Go ahead an add Summoner Dedication to any of those examples you just gave, now you have a creature who can permanently aid you on any skill check you make, all for the low cost of one class feat. The lack of Tandem actions don't matter outside combat, so there's no downsides.
This is the point I'm trying to make.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not only. Familiars with Ambassador can Aid with Diplomacy to Impress, with Partner in Crime can Aid with Deception/Thievery, with Second Opinion can Aid with RK, with Snoop can Aid with Diplomacy to Gather Information
And again, there's nothing about Aid here. I'm inclined to think there's no such rule and Ravingdork's GM simply ruled wrong.First off, these challenges typically don't allow anyone to aid, everyone must make their own check. In rare cases, Aiding is allowed, but typically in place of making a check of your own.
Do the skill challenges you are referring to explicitly restrict the Aid action? Or are you simply making a supposition? I've yet to see a rule forbidding Aid.
Insofar as I can tell, everyone is making their own check, even when Aid is being used. There's no substitution going on, just assistance.
Second, these challenges only take into account the number of PCs, not which class they are. No class should have an innate advantage in these sorts of challenges. If it is allowed in these instances to aid an eidolon, or for a eidolon to aid you, then there ends up being a huge advantage to having an eidolon. That would lead to every PC having an eidolon, just to aid on such checks.
The OP does not want character options that are "must haves". Eidolons have plenty of benefits, but allowing them to aid in those situations essentially gives you a permanent +1 to +3 boost to your skill that isn't accounted for in writing scenarios, and if it is then those without eidolons are at a disadvantage.
Respectfully, I disagree. The summoner class doesn't have an inherent advantage. Aid is something anyone can do. It could be a familiar (with the appropriate feat), an NPC, or one of the other PCs. There are even hirelings in PFS that can make the checks for you in your place, or Aid you on non-combat checks (though in this latter instance, the reverse is not true).
This is why when you engage in these kinds of challenges, you pick one of the two and make a check, and the other basically voids out until the next check.
When using Aid, only one of the two is making the check though. They can't succeed twice and get two victory points.
All I can tell you is that if you think that the GM ruled incorrectly, that you should take it up the PFS leadership ladder. Debating it out with me isn't going to be useful.
|
|
If everyone in the party is making a skill check of their own, they can not also Aid someone else. The whole point of the Victory Point system is to grade the entire party's efforts toward a common goal. One person Crafts a pully system, and another hoists a weaker party member with Athletics, while that PC uses Acrobatics to balance once they get to the top. All three are assisting each other but make their individual checks, and the cumulative points explain how well the party did over all. There are some Victory Point challenges that explicitly allow PCs to Aid instead of rolling, meaning it's an exception to the normal rules. I can't recall them off the top of my head, but I have GMed enough to know they exist.
While Aiding is something anyone can do, you can't aid yourself. As a Summoner, you can be a Master in something like Diplomacy, and have your Eidolon with 18 Cha make the check, while you Aid with Cooperative Nature for an easy +3. This is not accounted for in scenario design, and with how tight numbers are in 2e, a +3 is a HUGE bonus.
Yes, Hirelings exist, but can not Aid nor can they benefit from Aiding, or any other bonus for that matter. They are exclusively there to round out a PCs skills without Untrained Improv.
The clarification states you can only make one check. It does not state the one sitting out can aid the other.
If everyone in the party is making a skill check of their own, they can not also Aid someone else. The whole point of the Victory Point system is to grade the entire party's efforts toward a common goal. One person Crafts a pully system, and another hoists a weaker party member with Athletics, while that PC uses Acrobatics to balance once they get to the top. All three are assisting each other but make their individual checks, and the cumulative points explain how well the party did over all.
That's a good point, and I wouldn't stand in the way of a GM who ruled thusly, but that's still not an explicit restriction. Some tasks could take longer than others, while some could be finished quite quickly, allowing time left over to assist others.
There are some Victory Point challenges that explicitly allow PCs to Aid instead of rolling, meaning it's an exception to the normal rules. I can't recall them off the top of my head, but I have GMed enough to know they exist.
Could you please direct us to some of those examples. Seeing them for ourselves may well shed some additional insight. Perhaps they are the exceptions that prove your rule.
While Aiding is something anyone can do, you can't aid yourself. As a Summoner, you can be a Master in something like Diplomacy, and have your Eidolon with 18 Cha make the check, while you Aid with Cooperative Nature for an easy +3. This is not accounted for in scenario design, and with how tight numbers are in 2e, a +3 is a HUGE bonus.
Have you talked to a developer to know that for sure? If not, for all you and I know, they're totally cool with that.
Yes, Hirelings exist, but can not Aid nor can they benefit from Aiding, or any other bonus for that matter. They are exclusively there to round out a PCs skills without Untrained Improv.
It is true that you cannot aid a hireling, as that is explicitly stated. However, there's nothing that says they can't aid you. From what I could tell, they are explicitly allowed to make any non-combat check for which they have a listed skill.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flagging to move to PFS forum. I think that would get more vision from people who know the details.
Flagging to move to PFS forum. I think that would get more vision from people who know the details.
I've already started a new thread there, so I don't think that would be necessary.
Not unless the moderators can merge the threads and edit the redundancies that doing so might cause.