Dune - Part 2

[Aberzombie]

Trailer for part 2

I enjoyed the first part, and thought it was a pretty solid adaptation.

I noticed what looked to be the arena fight on Giedi Prime, the one with Feyd and Thufir shenanigans. So that gives me hope this one will be pretty solid as well.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Looking forward to it. Despite leaving out much of the book I felt the first movie did a decent job of bringing the essence of the book across. In any case, it was sheer joy to look at and this installment promises to be equally pretty.

[Aberzombie]

New Trailer

And it looks like Christopher Walken is playing Shaddam.

[Quark Blast]

So far this is looking most excellent. I can't wait until November.... but I'm hearing rumor that it might be pushed out until next year because the actors won't be available to promote the show.

[Aberzombie]

I heard that rumor. Hope it’s not true.

[Quark Blast]

There are many reasons for them to push it out until next year beyond the fallout from the strike. There may be contractual reasons to release it this year though. The fact that it's still only a rumor makes me think it'll be out in November.

[Aberzombie]

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

I just saw a news drop saying the movie’s been delayed to 2024 due to the ongoing, thrice-damned strike.

F&$king @$&holes. If there’s a way for all sides to lose, I hope it happens. That’s the one movie this year I was truly looking forward to.

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

So petty

[Thomas Seitz]

Oh for the love of Crom, Z. That's that most asinine comment I've read from you in quite some time.

Boo hoo, your movie get delayed. BIG whoop. Mean while the WRITERS and actors that MAKE it work are starving.

So...yeah big non-sympathy from me.

[Thomas Seitz]

Agreed, Tris. Completely.

[ShinHakkaider]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Oh for the love of Crom, Z. That's that most asinine comment I've read from you in quite some time.

Boo hoo, your movie get delayed. BIG whoop. Mean while the WRITERS and actors that MAKE it work are starving.

So...yeah big non-sympathy from me.

YEAH, I'm looking forward to this movie about as much as anyone. Everytime I've seen the trailer in full on IMAX I'm like "LET'S GO!!!!!"

But if I NEVER get to see it because the studios refuse to meet the demands the writers who adapt and craft these stories or the working actors who are in them? *Shrugs* OH WELL. Placing my desire to see a movie over the fair treatment for the people who help make these studios billions of dollars while most actors cant even get health care or pay rent? Nah.

[Freehold DM]

I'm not really looking forward to the movie per se(the 80 version scared the shit out of me as a kid) but I do know this was set to be a major cinematic experience with a lot of...interesting actor choices(80s version is even more interesting. Sting. Acting his heart out.), but I also know the strike is HUGE, possibly the biggest of all time with respect to the industry.

Let them get their house in order first. Then we can watch....this.

[Aberzombie]

Freehold DM wrote:

I'm not really looking forward to the movie per se(the 80 version scared the shit out of me as a kid) but I do know this was set to be a major cinematic experience with a lot of...interesting actor choices(80s version is even more interesting. Sting. Acting his heart out.), but I also know the strike is HUGE, possibly the biggest of all time with respect to the industry.

I still enjoy the old 80s version as a good sci-fi movie, with a (for the most part) stellar cast. I just didn’t think it was a great adaptation to f the book.

As for the modern versions casting choices, I think the only two that really bothered me (but only a little) were Liet Kynes and the Emperor. Kynes because I thought the character should have been a dude like in the book. The Emperor because as much as I love Walken, he’s too old for the part. I was a bit iffy on Idaho, but only because I didn’t like some of the dialogue they gave him.

[Quark Blast]

Less than a month away!

People who've seen it are saying it's great. I can hardly wait.

Edit:
last official trailer

[Quark Blast]

A somewhat spoilery clip from the movie, released 10 days ago, strongly supports the now common view among early viewers of the whole movie that Dune part 2 will be better than Dune part 1 and, like Jackson's LotR movies, will set the standard for 'hard' SciFi going forward over the next few decades.

[Quark Blast]

Saw it at an unlikely hour to reduce the headcount. My plan worked and there were only twelve of us at the zero-hundred hour showing.

Three word review:
Good beyond hope.

I've talked with a couple of people who were annoyed that Alia was nerfed but then I thought, while the complaint is valid, as long as the presentation adapts the material in a way consistent with the world as presented in the novel, then one just has to leave room to let art be art and be at peace with the fact that one form is fundamentally different from another. In short, that's why they call it an adaptation.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I actually liked part 1 better than 2. Still a damn good movie.

There are plenty of nits to pick, like how Stilgar was reduced to a caricature (my girlfriend and I laughed at loud at the "only the true Messiah would deny his divinity" bit), removing Thufir Hawat and Mentats altogether except as a background chorus, and too many other changing of characters etc.

But as QB said, it's an adaptation. Things have to be changed to fit the film's runtime, to fit the flow of the story, to fit the change in medium, etc. Also, things have to be made more explicit to drive home the point to people.

Amusingly, after the movie was over I heard someone behind me who commented he hadn't expected Paul to be so brutal. I had to laugh.

The three of us who saw it had different expectations and previous degree of experience going in. There was me, who had read the books up to God-Emperor of Dune and knew a bit more about the Duniverse, my GF who knows the outline of the story and themes of the story but not the specfics, and her mother who only knows the first Villeneuve movie.
All three liked it and the 'dumbing down' (or at least change) of certain characters like Stilgar did help make issues more clear for the uninititied. Giving Chani more agency and functioning as a voice against manipulation really appealed to my GF.

I really hope Dune Messiah gets a movie.

[pauljathome]

I think I'll give a somewhat dissenting opinion.

I thought it was ok but no more than that.

Although I think a great many of my problems may well have been from the novel. I read the book so long ago that my memories are quite vague.

My biggest issue is that far too much got crammed into a single movie and, as a result, lots of it didn't really make much sense. It really needed to be a miniseries and not just 2 movies.

As an example, how the heck did the small guerrilla force rebels suddenly mount a huge army to attack and defeat a technologically more powerful foe literally half a world away? How the heck could they achieve surprise when there are people looking down from space?

I've always hated the trope that people raised in very harsh environments magically become superhuman warriors, both individually and at an organizational level. It is just so incredibly not true.

Toss in all the eugenics garbage and poorly explained mystical stuff and I was left confused much of the time.

[Werthead]

The Spacing Guild refuse to put satellites in orbit around Arrakis. They claim that the static of the storms makes them useless, but in reality they're being paid off by the Fremen using spice they're mining in the south. The Harkonnens and the Emperor suspect this but cannot prove it.

I think the film did a reasonable point of making out that the Fremen in the northern hemisphere are only part of the entire Fremen culture, and those who are actively fighting and engaging the Harkonnens are really only Stilgar's forces from Sietch Tabr and a few allies. So the numbers of Fremen involved in combat operations is minuscule compared to their true numbers. When the other northern Fremen and all the tribes of the south ally, their numbers completely take the Harkonnens and Emperor by surprise. By blowing the Shield Wall with atomics (the use of nuclear weapons in warfare is prohibited; their use against geographical features is permissible) they are able to attack from an unexpected vector. The storm also grounds Harkonnen airpower. Without that the Fremen are technologically much closer to their opponents.

The Fremen are not badass just from living in harsh environments, but from their personal mantra of discipline and warrior culture, not just on Arrakis but on every planet of the Zensunni Wanderings before that, stretching back well over ten thousand years. The reason the Fremen are so good is that there is no real technological disparity (versus Native American warriors, whose bravery and skill was often not in doubt, but were outclassed by the discipline, superior firepower and superior numbers of the invaders), with them also having firearms, las-weapons, aircraft (in small numbers) etc, as well as having Reverend Mothers with skills comparable to Bene Gesserit, contacts in the Spacing Guild and so on.

Admittedly one area the 1984 movie improves on is giving the Fremen the weirding modules to give them a technological edge on the Harkonnens to entail a speedy victory, whilst the novel has Jessica teaching many of the Fremen the weirding method of combat (hyperfast martial arts) which doesn't happen in this film for some reason.

[pauljathome]

Werthead wrote:

The Spacing Guild refuse to put satellites in orbit around Arrakis. ....

And none of that was remotely apparant to me from just watching the movie (as I said, I read the books a LONG time ago. On the order of 40 years ago).

[Quark Blast]

pauljathome wrote:

I think I'll give a somewhat dissenting opinion.

I thought it was ok but no more than that.

Although I think a great many of my problems may well have been from the novel. I read the book so long ago that my memories are quite vague.

My biggest issue is that far too much got crammed into a single movie and, as a result, lots of it didn't really make much sense. It really needed to be a miniseries and not just 2 movies.

So at 5 hours and 20+ minutes between the two parts, these movies likely have more screen time than a 6-part mini series, what with all the standard intro/outro for each episode. Just say'n....

pauljathome wrote:

As an example, how the heck did the small guerrilla force rebels suddenly mount a huge army to attack and defeat a technologically more powerful foe literally half a world away? How the heck could they achieve surprise when there are people looking down from space?

What Werthead said. Also, Paul has clear prescience after he imbibes the worm piss at the southern temple. Which also explains why the final battle is a dawdle.

pauljathome wrote:

I've always hated the trope that people raised in very harsh environments magically become superhuman warriors, both individually and at an organizational level. It is just so incredibly not true.

Toss in all the eugenics garbage and poorly explained mystical stuff and I was left confused much of the time.

What Werthead said. Also, we do eugenics now.... only we call it "personalized medicine", and "patient provided additional healthcare coverage", and "biotech", and "the great society", and a thousand other small and large endeavors among our sciences (hard, social and in-between) in our attempt to fool nature and stave off extinction.

Frank Herbert was trying to teach things he learned about humanity through his stories. Things like, if we don't fundamentally change who we are, we will destroy ourselves. Ultimately, Paul's son asserts that, at the end of the Golden Path, humanity's best option is to bundle up in like-minded groups and flee far-far away*, in every direction, until the end of time. A pragmatic, if cynical, solution.

* And "far-far away" means not just interstellar but intergalactic distances.

[Cole Deschain]

I liked it, but Part 1 landed more solidly for me.

That said, the changes for the adaptation weren't a particular hangup for me, and I enjoyed how Stilgar's total devotion managed to be both funny and utterly terrifying.

[Quark Blast]

I saw this one in IMAX and I think one can save yourself a 10-spot and see it in a mid-range theater without missing anything.

It passed $700 million last week. It's an obvious Oscars contender. I can hardly wait for the next one. We will finally get to see guild navigators ala Villeneuve!

[Aberzombie]

I finally got around to watching it. It was entertaining, but as much as I was impressed with how the first part followed the book as best it could, I was disappointed with part two. I especially disliked the way they portrayed Chani and Stilgar. In fact, I thought much of the Fremen culture was handled poorly.

[Quark Blast]

Aberzombie wrote:

I finally got around to watching it. It was entertaining, but as much as I was impressed with how the first part followed the book as best it could, I was disappointed with part two. I especially disliked the way they portrayed Chani and Stilgar. In fact, I thought much of the Fremen culture was handled poorly.

Could you be more specific?

[Aberzombie]

Quark Blast wrote:

Aberzombie wrote:

I finally got around to watching it. It was entertaining, but as much as I was impressed with how the first part followed the book as best it could, I was disappointed with part two. I especially disliked the way they portrayed Chani and Stilgar. In fact, I thought much of the Fremen culture was handled poorly.

Could you be more specific?

Sure.

WRT Chani - in the book she's far more devoted to Paul, both as her "husband" and as the Lisan Al Gaib. She even goes so far as to kill challengers she thinks are unworthy of him. She's also one of the Sayyadina's of the tribe in the book, deeply involved in their religious rites. And she wasn't so angry in the book about "this is how they control you" and all that garbage.

WRT the Fremen as a whole - I got the impression from the movie that they were split into two camps, the religious believers in the south, and the non-believers in the north. That's not how it was in the book, where they were all very deeply religious people, but some had their doubts about Paul specifically. And I didn't see as much emphasis on the culture being organized along military lines either. And then there were their dwellings. Maybe I missed it, but many of them seemed open to the desert, with no moisture seals or doors. Again, kind of different from the book.

I should add that, as I think more on it, I don't think they did Stilgar as well as they could have either. I thought they greatly emphasized religious fervor over practical military leadership. Again, different from the book.

Still, as I said, I found it entertaining. Probably not enough to ever watch it again, though. I just happen to be one of those grumpy old bums who gets annoyed when his favorite books aren't better adapted.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I tell myself I've made peace with adaptations to source material when translating to another medium. There's no way they could adapt everything in the book in two movies and sometimes you need to reduce complexity to make certain aspects clearer. Chani is getting the Arwen treatment - giving her a role she didn't have in the book for conservation of characters and to give a face to one important element the greater theme.

I tell myself this every time I think about the films. I like the films and I think their about as good an adaptation as you can get within the limits of two films and the realities of Hollywood prodution, but there are definiately aspects I wish had been handled a bit differently.