During aquatic combat. One of the pc’s goes down. Another pc near by wants to drag them back onto land. So they are no longer drowning.
Per my rules, they must make an athletics check compared to their fortitude dc (Grapple check) to be able to drag the pc.
Now, it’s typically easier to carry heavy stuff in water.
Would I apply the: Easy, very easy or incredibly easy difficulty adjustment to the dc?
It partly depends on how deep they are in the water.
Remember that scuba divers often wear weighted belts to keep themselves from bouncing back to the surface of the water. The human body has a fair amount of bouancy in shallow (1-40 ft) waters.
And, most importantly, it depends on the story you want to tell: is saving a buddy's life an important goal for the story, or do you want to make it more likely that they won't succeed and the pc will die?
True, although scuba divers aren’t going into water wearing suits of armor and carrying weapons.
That’s why I’m asking how other people would handle it.
During aquatic combat. One of the pc’s goes down. Another pc near by wants to drag them back onto land. So they are no longer drowning.
Per my rules, they must make an athletics check compared to their fortitude dc (Grapple check) to be able to drag the pc.
Now, it’s typically easier to carry heavy stuff in water.
Would I apply the: Easy, very easy or incredibly easy difficulty adjustment to the dc?
I'd argue you already ruled wrong. Fortitude DC for grapple is used for someone actively fighting back. Dragging an unconscious body is not comparable. It is like asking for a Tumble Through check to pass through an ally's space. You are conflating rules which are intended for enemies.
What you should really be using is the Swim DC, which is usually a simple one, and applying DC adjustment or a penalty, probably with a very hard adjustment (+5.) I like penalties more than a higher DC because it lets Assurance shine, personally. Dragging the body back onto land once you've gotten it to shore would likely be the same DC.
During aquatic combat. One of the pc’s goes down. Another pc near by wants to drag them back onto land. So they are no longer drowning.
Per my rules, they must make an athletics check compared to their fortitude dc (Grapple check) to be able to drag the pc.
Now, it’s typically easier to carry heavy stuff in water.
Would I apply the: Easy, very easy or incredibly easy difficulty adjustment to the dc?
I'd argue you already ruled wrong. Fortitude DC for grapple is used for someone actively fighting back. Dragging an unconscious body is not comparable. It is like asking for a Tumble Through check to pass through an ally's space. You are conflating rules which are intended for enemies.
What you should really be using is the Swim DC, which is usually a simple one, and applying DC adjustment or a penalty, probably with a very hard adjustment (+5.) I like penalties more than a higher DC because it lets Assurance shine, personally. Dragging the body back onto land once you've gotten it to shore would likely be the same DC.
The original reason I associated it with moving an unconscious body is because: It’s hard to move dead weight. And I saw the grapple check as comparable.
But now that you mention it, I can foresee issues popping up down the line that I neglected to consider.
I do like your idea more about it being a flat 15 DC and adjusting with penalties/bonus as needed.
But you wouldn't grapple to move an unconscious person.
If you were on land and had an unconscious ally you wanted to move (assuming your hands are empty) it should cost 1 (maybe 2 action) to pick them up and put them on your shoulder and carry them. No check required, except checking that you have enough carrying capacity to lift them. A medium size creature I believe counts as 10 bulk.
In water I would make it a swim (athletics check).
For the DC, go with whatever the DC for someone normally swimming in that water would be, for example still water is listed as an untrained check. I don't GM 2E much, so I'm actually not sure what number DC to use here, but what I'm saying is match the DC to the kind of water the PCs are swimming in, and then either adjust the DC or add a penalty for also moving your friend.
I would have ruled it as an action to grab, then a +2 DC to their swim check to move with them.
But now that you mention it, I can foresee issues popping up down the line that I neglected to consider.
Exactly. The same character would become much harder to save from drowning at level 10 than level 1, which I doubt is your intention. What you're really looking at here is not a contest between two creatures with levels, but a contest between one creature and their environment, which is what simple DCs are for.
For reference, here are the suggested baseline Swim DCs
Sample Swim Tasks
DC 10 lake or other still water
DC 15 flowing water, like a river
DC 20 swiftly flowing river
DC 30 stormy sea
DC 40 maelstrom, waterfall
A medium size creature I believe counts as 10 bulk.
The rules for creature bulk say it is 6 bulk for most Medium creatures and 3 Bulk for most Small creatures.
Source Core Rulebook pg. 272
You might need to know the Bulk of a creature, especially if you need to carry someone off the battlefield. The table that follows lists the typical Bulk of a creature based on its size, but the GM might adjust this number.
Bulk - Size of Creature
01 - Tiny
03 - Small
06 - Medium
12 - Large
24 - Huge
48 - Gargantuan
It does not explicitly state to add their gear to that, so in my games I generally don't unless they have an exceptional amount of heavy or bulky gear (such as full plate or a ladder).
Since they are in water and are presumably buoyant, I would treat lifting in water as roughly equivalent to dragging on land, and so would use those rules.
Source Core Rulebook pg. 272
In some situations, you might drag an object or creature rather than carry it. If you’re dragging something, treat its Bulk as half. Typically, you can drag one thing at a time, you must use both hands to do so, and you drag slowly—roughly 50 feet per minute unless you have some means to speed it up. Use the total Bulk of what you’re dragging, so if you have a sack laden with goods, use the sum of all the Bulk it carries instead of an individual item within.
In short, I would have them take an Interact/Manipulate action to grab their unconscious ally, then I would apply 3+ bulk (if Medium) against the dragging character's Encumbrance for determining effects on movement and other stats.
Easy peasy. No unnecessary checks and can be eyeballed and approximated in mere seconds.
I would also require Swim checks as normal, but wouldn't adjust DCs unless conditions called for them, such as in choppy water or rapids. I would run that separate bit of rules as independent of the bulk mechanics. No need to overcomplicate things. Better to keep things flowing along rather than getting mired under the weight of spot rulings.
A medium size creature I believe counts as 10 bulk.The rules for creature bulk say it is 6 bulk for most Medium creatures and 3 Bulk for most Small creatures.
Source Core Rulebook pg. 272
You might need to know the Bulk of a creature, especially if you need to carry someone off the battlefield. The table that follows lists the typical Bulk of a creature based on its size, but the GM might adjust this number.
Bulk - Size of Creature
01 - Tiny
03 - Small
06 - Medium
12 - Large
24 - Huge
48 - Gargantuan
Ah, looks like that got added in the 4th printing and I didn't notice (doesn't come up a whole lot).
Ah, looks like that got added in the 4th printing and I didn't notice (doesn't come up a whole lot).
I distinctly recall it being in the earlier printings as well.
As a person who has gone through lifeguard training I find this to be a pretty cool question. I think I agree with most others saying it would be an athletics check to swim rather then a grapple check.
That being said swimming with a person through the water (especially with all their gear) is absolutely exhausting the longer you go. I would probably put the DC higher then other suggestions and increasing with difficulty the longer you have to swim for (representing the rescuer running out of stamina).
Then again PF2e is not a simulationist game and do whats best for the story in the moment.
Ah, looks like that got added in the 4th printing and I didn't notice (doesn't come up a whole lot).Nope, it's on page 272 of my duct-taped 1st printing copy.
Hmmm, I could have sworn we (the forum) had questions about this and came to a conclusion that it should be 10 bulk, but maybe I'm thinking about play test rules.
At this point my memory is obviously faulty on this topic.
+1 for a more static check, depending on the condition of the water rather than the level of the ally.