So we are fighting some sort of Dark Fey abomination, and first time since we started this campaign, over three major combats, I finally hit an attack with my Magus. Suddenly, all hell breaks loose because apparently, no one understands how that s*~$ works, apparently not even me.
So base understanding here, my GM ruled it so I could wield a two-handed weapon and still use Spell Combat, the idea being that I tempt lift on hand off my weapon if needed to cast a spell and then fix my grip. It wasn't until later that we realized this would mean I get time and a half for my STR mod for dmg, it was just to have the theme of me being a big cobalt Aphorite woman who was raised a blacksmith by her father and fights with both an Earthbreaker and a Lucerne Hammer at ranged. Thus, Spell Combat works normally for me despite wielding a two-handed weapon.
I started combat by Spell Combat casting Blade Tutor's Spirit and then swinging and basically auto-hitting a poor child amalgamation and ending it's suffering. On my next turn, since the evil fey is within 10ft after a transformation, I cast Burning Hands and Spellstrike it to swing twice, and as per usual, I missed both even with a +5 to hit and having both BTS and my Arcane Pool buffs up to negate the -2 due to Spell Combat.
Finally, on my next turn, for the FIRST TIME in the campaign I land an attack with my weapon charged with a spell. I did Spell Combat again as the enemy was still in range, I hit him, and did 12 dmg via my Lucerne Hammer and 6 dmg via Burning Hands being charged in the weapon, which is now gone upon contact.
I then was going to cast Burning Hands again via Spell Combat since I get to choose whether or not I cast first or attack first, with the idea being that as my last Lvl 1 spell I can maybe hit the bastard again and maybe end the fight, so I announce I'm casting Burning Hand and using Spellstrike so that I can attack with my Lucerne Hammer again...and apparently, that seems incorrect and imbalanced by my DM.
So, I'm coming to the experts who understand Pathfinder better than our whole: Can you combine Spell Combat and Spellstrike each turn, provided you can take a Full Round Action and can cast a Touch Attack spell, to always make two attacks with your weapon that can theoretically both land to deal both weapon and spell damage in a turn you miss your Spellstrike attacks?? Also, how in any way is this more than two attacks, since I'm sacrificing my Touch Attack for a Melee Attack?
Your DM was correct to not allow you to do that… but not for the reason either of you seem to think. You cannot spellstrike with Burning Hands. Spellstrike only works with melee Touch spells, Ranged Touch spells can be made to work with it through a magus arcana. Burning Hands is NOT a touch a spell, it is a cone AoE. You can cast it with spell combat, but NOT spellstrike. Since you used it earlier in your turn once, then you had already used it with spell combat .
FYI, Spell combat and Spellstrike do not allow you to cast multiple standard action spells in one round.
Eaxh turn that you use Spellstrike in, it is assumed that you are also using spell combat. If you spellstrike without spellcombat then you only get One attack. If you miss with a spellstrike, them the spell damage is applied to your next melee attack until you land an attack, make a ranged attack, or cast another spell.
Your DM was correct to not allow you to do that… but not for the reason either of you seem to think. You cannot spellstrike with Burning Hands. Spellstrike only works with melee Touch spells, Ranged Touch spells can be made to work with it through a magus arcana. Burning Hands is NOT a touch a spell, it is a cone AoE. You can cast it with spell combat, but NOT spellstrike. Since you used it earlier in your turn once, then you had already used it with spell combat .
FYI, Spell combat and Spellstrike do not allow you to cast multiple standard action spells in one round.
Oops, I misread Burning Hands as a fire version of Shocking Grasp.
So in this same situation, replace Burning Hands WITH a Touch attack spell.
In that case, who is correct?
Remember, the situations was Spell Combat AND Spellstrike, putting what we THOUGHT was a Touch Attack Spell into my weapon, attacking twice and missing. Next round, I declaring Spell Combat and attacking first, landing the attack, then declaring I was Spellstriking another Touch Attack spell.
Also, I found the Magus Arcana you were speaking of, and if I keep playing and we make it to the next level, I think I'll take it just for the convenience of this not happening again of mistaking the difference in touch spells.
If you had cast a touch spell, then yes, you could carry the spellstrike damage over to the following round assuming the attack missed or you used a touch spell with multiple attacks. If you wish to spellstrike on a turn that you have a held charge, then you must call it at the e start of your turn and pay the -2 penalty on all your attacks for spell combat even if you plan to only add it at the end of your turn. You attacked first with the held charge and then only decided to add spellstrike after the enemy survived, if I were your DM I would have said no to.
If you had cast a touch spell, then yes, you could carry the spellstrike damage over to the following round assuming the attack missed or you used a touch spell with multiple attacks. If you wish to spellstrike on a turn that you have a held charge, then you must call it at the e start of your turn and pay the -2 penalty on all your attacks for spell combat even if you plan to only add it at the end of your turn. You attacked first with the held charge and then only decided to add spellstrike after the enemy survived, if I were your DM I would have said no to.
I actually already planned on casting a Touch Attack spell (which I we both thought Burning Hands) even if I missed, it because I had been missing most of my attacks the entire campaign, and just wanted the chance to finally hit something with Spellstrike.
However, if I understand correctly, if I use Spell Combat, I have to declare what spell I am casting and if I'm using Spellstrike much like when I declare if I'm attacking or casting first before anything else happens on my turn?
Also, since Burning Hands doesn't work like I thought, I may switch that to Touch of Combustion.
Yes, if you use spell combat you must declare your spell and what action is happening first before anything happens. You were fine to carry over the spell damage from a failed spellstrike and to even attempt to perform a new spellstrike as part of your attack. Some DMs may allow you to change your spell if your initial target is nolonger alive by the time you get to your spell cast, much like how you may change from making a melee attack to throwing your weapon in a full attack. But initial intent of action does need to be understood.
And yes, touch of combustion would be a valid spell for spellstrike.
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However, if I understand correctly, if I use Spell Combat, I have to declare what spell I am casting and if I'm using Spellstrike much like when I declare if I'm attacking or casting first before anything else happens on my turn?
This is what trips up new players: Spell Combat and Spellstrike are two different abilities with different functions that CAN be used independently, but they are very frequently used together.
Spell Combat is a full-round action and can be used with ANY spell that has a casting time of one standard action. It doesn’t have to be a touch spell, and it doesn’t even have to be an attack spell. You could, for example do the following in a single round.
1) Use a swift action to enhance your weapon using arcane pool.
2) Take a 5’ step.
3) Declare that you are using spell combat.
4) Make a melee attack (with a -2 penalty).
5) Decide to cast shocking grasp, make a concentration check to cast defensively, and a touch attack with a -2 penalty to deliver the spell.
Spellstrike simply allows you to deliver a touch spell through your weapon. So in the above example when you get to step 5, you make a weapon attack instead of a touch attack, doing both weapon and spell damage (if you hit).
When would you use Spellstrike without Spell Combat? When you have to move or otherwise cannot take a full-round action.
When would you use Spell Combat without Spellstrike? When you want to attack something next to you and cast a non-touch spell* in the same round. If, in the above sequence, you dropped your opponent with the melee attack in Step 4, you might decide to cast shield instead to improve your defenses as Step 5.
So, I'm assuming you now understand how touch attack spells work and how that's different than non-touch attack spells. You get the free attack, because of the qualities of touch attack spells combined with spell strike. If the spell had been like the actual burning hands, which is a cone instead, you could have still done the cone damage with the spell, but there would no free touch attack to interact with spell strike.
Spell Combat is similar to two weapon fighting, except your offhand weapon is a spell. You can cast/attack or attack/cast with spell combat, but either way you would need to commit to taking those penalties before you did either action.
As for your GMs feelings, it is indeed powerful. But it is also limited. You only have a few spells per day. And spell combat requires a full action, so you can't move more than a 5 foot step in the round you use it.
"Spell Combat (Ex)
[See FAQ]
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."
You cannot use Spell Combat with a two-handed weapon
the basics of spell combat/spell strike are this
When making a full round attack, you get all your normal attacks with a weapon, and can cast a spell, but you take a -2 to all attacks. If that spell is a touch spell, it can be delivered with an additional free attack.
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And yes, touch of combustion would be a valid spell for spellstrike.
Touch of Combustion is an Ifrit spell, so since the character is an Aphorite I'd suggest checking with the GM before using it.
If the GM thinks this magus is overpowered, I wonder what they'd make of the weapon finesse/dervish dancing scimitar-wielding intensified-shocking-grasp-as-a-first-level-spell version we have in our campaign? (Pretty much straight out of the "how to optimise your magus" guide.)
"Spell Combat (Ex)
[See FAQ]At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."
You cannot use Spell Combat with a two-handed weapon
the basics of spell combat/spell strike are this
When making a full round attack, you get all your normal attacks with a weapon, and can cast a spell, but you take a -2 to all attacks. If that spell is a touch spell, it can be delivered with an additional free attack.
ForsakenM’s DM is running with a houserule allowing for two-handed spellcombat… they stated as much in their first post…
So, I'm assuming you now understand how touch attack spells work and how that's different than non-touch attack spells. You get the free attack, because of the qualities of touch attack spells combined with spell strike. If the spell had been like the actual burning hands, which is a cone instead, you could have still done the cone damage with the spell, but there would no free touch attack to interact with spell strike.
Spell Combat is similar to two weapon fighting, except your offhand weapon is a spell. You can cast/attack or attack/cast with spell combat, but either way you would need to commit to taking those penalties before you did either action.
As for your GMs feelings, it is indeed powerful. But it is also limited. You only have a few spells per day. And spell combat requires a full action, so you can't move more than a 5 foot step in the round you use it.
So I didn't expect all these replies, but I want to thank you all.
We resolved it right away thanks to Chell responding so quickly and I really appreciate that. My DM (who is also one of my better friends) and I resolved it: he finally understood how it works and that if I attack w/ spellstrike and miss on a previous turn, I can Spell Combat and attack first and proc the spell if I hit, but that if I miss again I still have to cast whichever spell I said I was going to and lose the charge on the previous spell no matter what.
I also have learned that there are Melee and Ranged Touch Attack Spells, and without a Magus Arcana, I can only Spellstrike with Melee.
However, this is news to me that you can 5-Foot-Step before performing a Full-Round Action such as TWF or Spell Combat. I was under the impression that you couldn't move at all, not even the 5FS, before or after a FRA as it took up your 'full round'.
I also wasn't aware that I had to roll a Concentration Check EVERY time I used Spell Combat: I thought Concentration checks were only if you tried casting in strenuous situations such as intense movement or taking damage. If you HAVE to roll for Concentration EVERY time you use Spell Combat, that seems awful because that means you have just another way to fail and completely lose the spell entirely (and the slot used) in addition to missing your attacks on a successful cast.
After experiencing combat with the Magus (and consistently rolling awful) and having built them to be STR over Dex because I wanted to try something different, I can say with confidence that the class was 100% made without taking a STR build in mind even in the slightest. I find that to be a massive oversight, but the designers probably had the idea that someone who could use magic couldn't be buff or something like that. This has been heavily cleaned up and I think the Magus is a much better class in PF2e, so the original plan was to retire the character via not being able to handle being an adventurer (she has the least combat experience of the party in terms of backstory, in a grim-dark world, and we just failed to save like a third of a village of children from being turned into body horror abominations on top of her essentially killing a child that the party thought was past saving as a Flesh Golem)... but now I'm conflicted.
Not only does she now have the possibility for character development but we hit Lvl 3 which would bump BAB to +2 and I could possibly grab the Magus Arcana that lets me use an Arcane Pool point to add my +4 Int mod to all my attacks for that round.
I've been rolling on average mostly 7s or lower against some pretty beefy monsters but with this, I could stack this so even when using Spell Combat with Power Attack regardless of Spellstrike, I would be swinging with a +9 to hit (Spell Combat and Power Attack give -3, but I always start combat by casting Blade Tutor's Spirit normally or with Spell Combat and popping an Arcane Pool point, so Activating Arcane Accuracy gives +4 for all attack that round).
I mean I already jumped into making a new character with lore and everything, so I think the deal breaker here is if the Magus HAS to roll Concentration EVERY time they use Spell Combat.
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However, this is news to me that you can 5-Foot-Step before performing a Full-Round Action such as TWF or Spell Combat.
Yes. What's more, when doing spell combat you can do the 5-step between the attack and the spell.
I also wasn't aware that I had to roll a Concentration Check EVERY time I used Spell Combat
You don't, and I'm really not sure where you're getting that from. You roll concentration when you cast defensively (such as because you're in melee), but with smart usage of 5-steps you usually don't need to cast defensively.
However, this is news to me that you can 5-Foot-Step before performing a Full-Round Action such as TWF or Spell Combat.Yes. What's more, when doing spell combat you can do the 5-step between the attack and the spell.
I also wasn't aware that I had to roll a Concentration Check EVERY time I used Spell CombatYou don't, and I'm really not sure where you're getting that from. You roll concentration when you cast defensively (such as because you're in melee), but with smart usage of 5-steps you usually don't need to cast defensively.
So if you are in melee in someone's threat area, you have to cast defensively and thus have to roll for concentration?
I can't just cast and risk the AoO, then roll for concentration if I do get hit?
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Yes, if you use spell combat you must declare your spell and what action is happening first before anything happens.
You declare that you are using Spell combat, but you don't need to declare what spell you will cast, nor are you forced to cast a spell.
You take the penalty for using spell combat, you still have used a full round action, but that doesn't force you into casting a spell.- * -
About the concentration check:
- when you cast a spell you expose yourself to an Attack of Opportunity (if the opponent is in range to attack). If the attack lands you need to make a concentration check to complete the spell, otherwise, you lose it.
- You can choose to try a concentration check while casting the spell to avoid being distracted and to avoid the Attack of Opportunity. Thack check is way easier than the one you make if you are hit while casting.
- If you have a high AC or Mirror Image running, or you think that your opponent has already used all its Attacks of Opportunity, or simply trust your luck, you can choose not to make the concentration check and, potentially, suffer the Attack of Opportunity.
- you can cast a cantrip with Spell combat. A common way to get an extra attack while all your attacks made during Spell combat suffer the -2 modifier is to use Spell combat with Arcane Mark.
- attacks made outside the Spell combat full action (as an example, Attacks of Opportunity) don't suffer the -2 penalty. It starts when you start the Spell combat full action and it ends when the action end.