| Darksol the Painbringer |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So our group used Disintegrate last night that basically checked all the boxes of what it does, and it just seems like it's missing a lot of crucial information to adjudicate what does/doesn't work on it.
We had a target that was hit by it and was reduced to 0 HP. The issues are two-fold:
1. Disintegrate doesn't have a damage type. This is not consistent with any other spell or effect in the game that is typed out in some fashion. Even damage from falling is stated to be Bludgeoning (by default, anyway; I'm sure a GM will choose Piercing if falling into a pit of spikes, for example), so the idea that it just does not or cannot have a damage type is absurd when even something as basic as Falling has a damage type. The most logical answer would be Force or Fire damage, given that you're hit with something so powerful that you just turn to ashes if you're weak enough. As it stands, the only type of resistance that would work against this spell is either a Resistance (except) line, or Resistance All (which would probably work regardless of whether Disintegrate is defined a damage type or not, but not the point to be made here). Even worse, since it's not defined whether the Disintegrate damage is energy-based or not (because again, it's not typed in any fashion), even an enemy with, say, Resistance 15 Physical (except Silver) would apply its Resistance to it, and it seems hard to justify that being the case, but RAW, it could work, because again, the damage type isn't specified. Given that we were fighting Incorporeal creatures in this combat, (which usually have Resistance to all except a few damage types), being able to spell out what damage type Disintegrate actually is would be better guidance as to whether certain Resistances do or don't apply (with the only exception being Resistance All period, in which case the typing doesn't really matter to begin with).
2. Disintegrate has an effect of turning you to ash once you reach 0 HP, which is ambiguous as to what that precisely means mechanically, since it's not indicated that this is because of a Death effect, as it's lacking this trait. It could just as well be a sort of gravitational pull that condenses their body to the point of being fine powder, or a flame so hot that it just cooks them into ashes, instead of a Death effect, since I can see the argument dismissing this being a Death effect (otherwise physical undead like Skeletons and Zombies would be immune, for example, which probably doesn't make sense with the spell), because it's a matter of turning a physical creature to actual ashes, which can be done in a manner of ways, as I've described. The issue became that, with Breath of Life, it expressly denotes that creatures reduced to 0 HP via Disintegrate cannot be affected by the spell, and it's listed alongside other Death trait effects, so it creates this confusion of "Is this a death effect? It doesn't have the trait. But why wouldn't it have the trait if it's basically a death effect?"
| Baarogue |
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43rne?Treasure-Vault-errata#21
Perpdepog wrote:What type of damage is Rovagug's Mud, pp. 90-1, supposed to deal?It is intentionally untyped, just like disintegrate and rust monster rust.
So no, Resistance 15 Physical wouldn't work. It's a spell, so it is magical, but that and "all" are the only resistances I can think of that would apply
As for 2. You're overthinking it. They're disintegrated. They are literally turned to dust. But not in a transmutation way. In a that's-all-that's-left way. According to the spell description, "reduced to fine powder." Not ash, because they aren't burned. Nor are they crushed by a micro black hole. That's Implosion! [/megumin] which is the last source of untyped damage I know of. Just, one second their molecules, atoms, w/e were all together (integrated), and the next they are not
It is Arcane Evocation magic, so if you need to imagine anything for purposes of storytelling and not for justification for anything that exceeds the bounds of the spell description, it could be described as an energy ray so violent that it unbinds the molecular/atomic ties of the target, against the laws of reality
| Darksol the Painbringer |
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43rne?Treasure-Vault-errata#21
Michael Sayre wrote:Perpdepog wrote:What type of damage is Rovagug's Mud, pp. 90-1, supposed to deal?It is intentionally untyped, just like disintegrate and rust monster rust.So no, Resistance 15 Physical wouldn't work. It's a spell, so it is magical, but that and "all" are the only resistances I can think of that would apply
As for 2. You're overthinking it. They're disintegrated. They are literally turned to dust. But not in a transmutation way. In a that's-all-that's-left way. According to the spell description, "reduced to fine powder." Not ash, because they aren't burned. Nor are they crushed by a micro black hole. That's Implosion! [/megumin] which is the last source of untyped damage I know of. Just, one second their molecules, atoms, w/e were all together (integrated), and the next they are not
Attacks with an enchanted sword are magical too, and so are attacks with spells like Telekinetic Projectile. Doesn't mean it can't be based in physicality, and being untyped doesn't mean that is or isn't the case when it shares the same "type" as non-magical effects like "rust monster rust." As for it being left untyped, even if it's a design choice, it creates issues to determine what types of resistances (or even immunities) apply, given that the only apparent resistance that can reasonably apply is All, and if it has exceptions, being untyped doesn't fall under those exceptions, meaning again, Resistance 15 All (except Silver) would still technically apply to it, because it's not specified as to what type it actually is. Really, all being Magical does is lets you bypass Magic Resistance, and use the base Resistance values against Incorporeal creatures; it doesn't do much else.
Kind of, but the Death trait says that if the effect reduces the target to 0 HP (or fail some other qualifier), they are outright Dead. "Reduced to fine powder" isn't Dead, because that doesn't inflict the Dead condition, and the spell lacks the Death trait to include the obvious inference of "Yup, he's dead". Technically speaking, they are still a Creature that's Dying, meaning a Regeneration spell cast on them would bring them back to form (though healing them through other means would still make them a fine powder). Like you said, their atoms might have ceased being together, but that doesn't mean they aren't alive anymore, or that they can't be reconstituted (such as via Regeneration). Point is that it's not exactly spelled out.
| HumbleGamer |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Kind of, but the Death trait says that if the effect reduces the target to 0 HP (or fail some other qualifier), they are outright Dead. "Reduced to fine powder" isn't Dead, because that doesn't inflict the Dead condition, and the spell lacks the Death trait to include the obvious inference of "Yup, he's dead". Technically speaking, they are still a Creature that's Dying, meaning a Regeneration spell cast on them would bring them back to form (though healing them through other means would still make them a fine powder). Like you said, their atoms might have ceased being together, but that doesn't mean they aren't alive anymore, or that they can't be reconstituted (such as via Regeneration). Point is that it's not exactly spelled out.
Wat.
Anyway, it could be a nice idea for some sort of "t-1000" monster with fast healing that continues to return until a specific ritual ( or attack ) is performed.
Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
1) You are correct, resist all and resist all (except ...) would reduce the damage of disintegrate.
2)Actually, Breath of Life oddly helps answer that question. The trigger of BoL is "A living creature within range would die." Therefore the effect of disintegrate reducing a creature to 0 would cause it to die. Otherwise the text in BoL would be pointless when it calls out disintegrate.
I see no issues with disintegrate.
Cordell Kintner
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is what happens when you treat the rules like a legal document rather than guidelines to run your games by. It's so obvious what's intended to happen with Disintegrate. Stop trying to rules lawyer it to be more convoluted than it needs to be.
If you don't like it, change it. You don't have to come here to get the public's approval to change something in your personal home game.
| Sibelius Eos Owm |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Generally I imagine that disintegrate is a spell designed to cause every one of your cells (or atoms, or whatever other base unit the target is made up of) to repel one another. If you have hp it only hurts a lot all over. If you drop to 0 the physical bonds of your body break and your body simply falls to powdered tissues and other component parts. That's about as simple as it gets. Only time we've had trouble with it in my group was when the sorcerer crit disintegrated an attacker later discovered to be a mind controlled innocent which the Cleric could not trivially raise because of aforementioned powdery remains.
Disintegrate is a brutally concise spell, but I don't think it really leaves all that much room for ambiguity. I've in the past kind of wished it did have some more detail but it seems to what it says on the tin.