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I really like the idea of talismans and the Talisman Dabbler archetype. They fit the flavor of any fantasy world well, many of them are very creative, and they fill the niche of "consumable magic charm" well. However, after reading through talismans and the Talisman Dabbler archetype, I feel a bit...underwhelmed. Part of this is certainly due to them being so new that they haven't been fully fleshed out like potions, wands, staves, etc. However, many talismans have very specific triggers and uses that they feel too specific to be worth using. The Dabbler archetype certainly makes them easier to use, but since so many of them are niche it doesn't really feel worth pursuing.
I think the design idea behind talismans being comparable to potions/elixirs is good, but because these are so niche they just need a tweak to be worth the trouble. What I've started doing is making changes like changing the Jade Cat talisman to act as the Feather Fall spell instead of just letting you ignore 20 ft worth of fall damage (in addition to the help it gives you while balancing, walking on uneven terrain, etc.).
The Dabbler archetype could also benefit from being able to share the benefits of talismans with allies. To use the Jade Cat as an example again, giving the party's sorcerer the benefits of the talisman while they're falling from a high tower could be incredibly useful. Maybe increasing the number of times a talisman can be used before its magic is expended could be good as well (equal to the number of Dabbler feats you have?).
Anyone else make any changes to the talismans or the Talisman Dabbler archetype? Am I underestimating these magic baubles?
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The main use i've seen for it is to grab the items that give you 1/use of a fighter feat. Mostly because you can have a fighter use it to upgrade their preexisting feat. For example intimidating strike does frightened 2/crit 3 when upgraded... and fighters can crit more reliably than other classes.
That is a pretty good debuff, and fighters have feats to further punish it.
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I really like the flavour of talismans. In fact in my games I explain that they're actually one of the most common and widespread magical items, found in possession of peasants and nobility alike; the official ones in the books represent just a small handful of of talismans of particular interest to adventuring types.
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I would love to utilize the Talisman Dabbler, but I find it extremely difficult to justify, at least for the specific builds I've been playing with. Grabbing a spell casting archetype has simply been too much better to consider the Dabbler.
I acknowledge talismans have some advantages over spells. They are often free actions, giving a real benefit without eating into a character's action economy. They are also not dependent on attributes, skills, or class features.
On the other hand, talismans are pricey. Consider the Vanishing Coin, which gives the 2nd level invisibility spell, lasing until your next turn. It can be used as a free action, but must be used under specific circumstances. It costs 160 gp. A scroll of 2nd level invisibility lasts for 10 minutes, has the usual scroll casting requirements, but only costs 12 gp. Or, for the 160 gp the Vanishing Coin costs, you could buy a wand of invisibility, which could be used once per day (again, using 2 actions, needing the right class feature or Trick Magic Item).
Talismans are also limited. You can have just one on each of your armor, shield, and weapon. And they take time to affix to your items. If you don't carry a shield, you basically have 2 niche expensive items that hopefully will save you an action or two at an opportune time.
The Talisman Dabbler might be able to make talismans more attractive, but does it? You get two talismans free each day, and can affix them with less downtime. You are also able to craft instead of buying, which is handy for when you are out and about. With the 4th and 14th level feats, you can basically have 4 free affixed talisman/day. It isn't terrible.
But compare that to the Sorcerer archetype? At level 14 you could have 2 cantrips, and 5 spells and spell slots, levels 1-5.
Further, the Talisman Dabbler's free talismans are limited to 1/2 your character level. So at level 20, you could create the aforementioned Vanishing Coin, which grants a 2nd level spell. The sorcerer archetype can do this at level 6.
I do understand the Vanishing Coin gives a free action, and the Dabbler has no attribute prerequisites. But I think it is a rare build that would find it more useful than one of the spellcasting options.
Soooooo, what could make it worthwhile? I agree that making the talismans themselves less niche would help. But that requires a lot of changes. Maybe the Dabbler can be adjusted. More free talismans (usable only by the dabbler)? Maybe changing the maximum level of free talismans from 1/2 character level to level-2 (minimum of 1)? Lowering the feat levels?
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Nail, meet (hammer) head.
Talismans are basically overpriced magical consumables, which are already over priced (you're never going to use a consumable of your level, but rather your level -5, due to cost).
Free Action to trigger instead of 2 actions? For 1/10th the benefit? Was that really worth a x10 cost multiplier? No, no it really wasn't.
If you really want to build a Talisman Dabbler your best option is a Scoundrel Rogue, imo. Mesmerizing Opal is kinda nuts, way better than the other low level talismans, so getting free talismans to add to your standard rotation is actually worth the feat.
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Or, random thought, you could condition how many you get to make each day on your skill in Crafting: 2 for untrained, 3 for trained, 4 for expert, 5 for master, 6 for legendary. You could set level increases that way too.
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While it doesn't help the Dabbler much, one of the people at my table has suggested we reduce the price of talismans to 1/10th the current value.
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Nail, meet (hammer) head.
Talismans are basically overpriced magical consumables, which are already over priced (you're never going to use a consumable of your level, but rather your level -5, due to cost).Free Action to trigger instead of 2 actions? For 1/10th the benefit? Was that really worth a x10 cost multiplier? No, no it really wasn't.
Much like grenades in Starfinder, this seems to only take into consideration items that are purchased. When found as loot they are perfectly fine to use, and I told my players as much. They're best used shortly after they're found, as they can quickly lose their value if they're held onto until a higher level is reached.
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They're best used shortly after they're found, as they can quickly lose their value if they're held onto until a higher level is reached.
Yeah, no. I resent this. Half the consumables I'm likely to find are things that I say, "ok, but when would I ever USE this?" and the handful that are things I'd consider using, they feel too valuable (gold/sell wise) to actually WANT to.
The only exception is potions of heal because I know exactly when those are useful. They're very much a "it doesn't matter what their sell-price is, its less than raise dead." Very very very very few other consumables meet this similar threshhold (I've found one: fortifying pebble).
So many fall into the "yeah, but if I was built to take advantage of this, I wouldn't need it" and "yeah, but if I use it, and its great and I want to do it again, how do I get another? Oh, they cost THAT much? Screw it, I'm not going to bother."
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I think what I'll do is this:
-Increase the power of the talisman effects (mostly change them to replicate spells)
-Broaden the triggers/requirements to make it more likely that you can actually benefit from them
-Cut the cost in half for buying/crafting
For example, the Jade Cat talisman would be changed like this:
Price: 3 gp
Requirements: none (just affix to armor)
Benefit: For 1 minute after you activate the cat, you are treated as if you had Feather Fall, you are not flat-footed when you Balance, and narrow surfaces and uneven ground are not difficult terrain for you.
(RAW Jade Cat talisman, for reference: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=223)
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If all talismans granted their bonus for 10 rounds (1 minute) instead of a single round in many cases, they would be more useful. And the prices do need to be reigned in.
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I find it funny that a question about free talismans swiftly veers into how pricey they are. And I agree, having said as much in the playtest. I think the greatest benefit would be if they could be used after a failure, otherwise you're blowing gold for a gamble.
As for the OP, the utility of getting a caster MCD or even Alchemist MCD outweighs the value of this Dedication, even if you only take the one feat and even if already a caster. (And now there's enough diversity of casters that it's easy to qualify for at least two.) Unless there's a go-to Talisman that amplifies a specific build, then maybe this might be worthwhile. But I don't think there's a diverse enough set of useful Talismans to say one's improving one's utility. There are few Talismans I wouldn't auto-sell, with even their presence on my character often being too insignificant to want to track. (And this is coming from a guy whose PFS characters often had scores of scrolls and a dozen wands.)
Compare to taking Blessed One and getting Lay on Hands once per lull or to Rogue which adds skills, a skill feat, & surprise attack (plus access to more breadth and cool feats). Hard for access to Talismans to compete with such bread n' butter benefits.
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I find it funny that a question about free talismans swiftly veers into how pricey they are.
Because their effects are still terrible. :P
"I wouldn't use this even if it was free!"But it is free.
"Yes, it is, and I wouldn't use it. And I wouldn't pay for it either."
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Because their effects are still terrible. :P
"I wouldn't use this even if it was free!"
But it is free.
"Yes, it is, and I wouldn't use it. And I wouldn't pay for it either."
It is a whole combination of things. The effects can be pretty niche. You can have a maximum of 3 (or 4 with enough Dabbler feats). They are extremely expensive. They are the sort of thing you are likely to forget you even have, since it is hard to work them into your standard strategies.
What if you made them into once/day items, like wands? The price would be similar to wands for similar effects, would use fewer actions to use, but carry more restrictions for what could trigger them.
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While it doesn't help the Dabbler much, one of the people at my table has suggested we reduce the price of talismans to 1/10th the current value.For my table, all consumble prices are "per batch", i find it makes buying/crafting and using them more reasonable that way.
That's one of those things I recall seeing Paizo say that they'd do between the playtest and release, but no where in the book does it ACTUALLY SAY that.
(And even with that, talismans are still 1/10th the effect for 10x the cost, you've just lowered the cost on both by a factor of 4).
That was more of a "I remember hearing they were going to, then they didn't, and that makes me sad" than "you're wrong"