Hey everyone,
sadly the email bound to my old account has been lost, so I've had to make a new one. It's good to finally have the time and space of mind to GM again, and I've overhauled my house rule document for my new campaign.
To my actual question:
To encourage creative out-of-combat use of spells, I am thinking about changing the duration of all non-instantaneous/permanent spells to "concentration + [whatever the normal duration is]".
I would institute the rule that, if the conditions that are neccesary for casting the spell (like range, line of sight, etc) are not given for a full round, the timer starts ticking anyway.
This is to avoid stuff like "we'll hire a bunch of low level minions, have them cast buffs and concentrate on them, the´n park them in a rope trick/outside the dungeon where they are not in danger".
The full round stuff is to enable the concept to work even in round based combat, where people might exceed the range when one person moves and the other one hasn't yet. In narrative time, this is of course not a problem.
I have had this same rule in effect for all summoning spells for a long time and it has led to great creative uses like using a summoned dog for tracking and using the SLA/skills of summoned creatures for out of combat applications.
I know this ends up being another buff for casters, but I remedy this imbalance in my home games in other ways, so please don't discuss balancing of classes regarding this.
What I want to know: Are there any loopholes I've overlooked? What do you think you would do, where you a player in a game with this rule?
Do you have any ideas for broken concepts based on this?
Thanks in advance.
I would use this to prebuff with rnd/level spells outside the first door in a dungeon (or equivalent decision point), if there is no fight then just concentrate to keep the spell going till it is needed. Not gambreaking, but a way help not waste resources.
By moving slowly you can get anywhere with one casting of Vanish.
Being mounted to allow decent movement while concentrating becomes more valuable for casters.
As a GM I'd consider requiring verbal and somantic components to be continued during the concentration period, to make it less subtle.
Can you cast and maintain concentration on multiple buffs?
How does this interact with Extend?
Can you Let some rounds pass and the concentrate again to maintain a spell?
I can see this as being a very powerful house rule, and I can see it as being no big deal. Once you get to a certain level, buffs pretty much last 1 combat, multiple combats, or all day. so Actual duration is really not an issue.
Thanks for the answers :)
Remember that "concentrating on a spell" is a standard action, so any actions requiring a standard (which I interpret as "abova a certain complexity") are out, while you concentrate. Including casting any other spells, so that automatically rules out the whole "multiple buffs"-scenatrio. The caster basically gives up their ability to cast any other spells AND half their action for the whole time.
And no, you can not resume concentration, as with the normal concentration rules. Once the timer runs, it runs.
personally I don't think it's a good idea.
All non-instantaneous spells can now basically be 'held', like Summon Monster or Positive Pulse and those are just First level spells. Wait until Aqueous Orb, Swarm of Fangs, Heroism, Call the Void show up at Third level... gonna get crazy.
How will this affect the Initiative game of Who Goes First?
If you want to extend spells, say double the current duration, you have to give it a value in gold or Hit Points or ability damage. You can tie a save into it to avoid some of the damage but not all (learn from the Kineticist). You would be replacing a rod of spell extension in some ways (people may prefer just to pay Xgp up front for 3/day). It should not exceed the upfront NPC spell casting cost of 10*SplLvl*CL. Scroll cost is 25*SplLvl*CL. There are several alchemical reagents that add a round or CL.
Time: Generally adding SplLvl rounds to casting time automatically moves a spell out of combat.
Movement: Generally adding a maximum move of 5ft per round while casting moves a spell that takes time to cast out of combat.
Another spin on this is to used an attuned focus to extend the duration of a spell. The object has a cost and it degrades as the spell goes on. You'll have to put some hard limits on these otherwise people will have 3-6 going on at once.
I've done casting out of a spell book using rounds for casting time and reagents (cost) and a spellcraft check. Failure means the spell gets erased. Normally people cast out of spellbook copies. That opens up a lot of non-combat casting.
Azothath wrote: personally I don't think it's a good idea.
All non-instantaneous spells can now basically be 'held', like Summon Monster or Positive Pulse and those are just First level spells. Wait until Aqueous Orb, Swarm of Fangs, Heroism, Call the Void show up at Third level... gonna get crazy.
How will this affect the Initiative game of Who Goes First?
Do you really consider this as so much of a problem, seeing as the caster will not be able to use ANY other spells (except quickened, but that has it's own cost) or any attacks while they are concentrating?
So do you think "paying" with the loss of all other combat actions in exchange for the extended spell duration is still gamebreaking?
KalridianReincarnated wrote: Thanks for the answers :)
Remember that "concentrating on a spell" is a standard action, so any actions requiring a standard (which I interpret as "abova a certain complexity") are out, while you concentrate. Including casting any other spells, so that automatically rules out the whole "multiple buffs"-scenatrio. The caster basically gives up their ability to cast any other spells AND half their action for the whole time.
And no, you can not resume concentration, as with the normal concentration rules. Once the timer runs, it runs.
Yeah, IMO, this pretty much makes this a useless ability. I'd never bother to use it in my games. Except maybe for long distance travel Haste of fly being able to last all day long would greatly impact travel times, etc)
TxSam88 wrote: KalridianReincarnated wrote: Thanks for the answers :)
Remember that "concentrating on a spell" is a standard action, so any actions requiring a standard (which I interpret as "abova a certain complexity") are out, while you concentrate. Including casting any other spells, so that automatically rules out the whole "multiple buffs"-scenatrio. The caster basically gives up their ability to cast any other spells AND half their action for the whole time.
And no, you can not resume concentration, as with the normal concentration rules. Once the timer runs, it runs.
Yeah, IMO, this pretty much makes this a useless ability. I'd never bother to use it in my games. Except maybe for long distance travel Haste of fly being able to last all day long would greatly impact travel times, etc) I think thats kinda the OPs point in this houserule… they want players to be more willing to use spell resources to solve problems outside of combat without feeling stifled by short spell durations while simultaneously not adding a lot of extra power in combat.
Chell Raighn wrote: TxSam88 wrote: KalridianReincarnated wrote: Thanks for the answers :)
Remember that "concentrating on a spell" is a standard action, so any actions requiring a standard (which I interpret as "abova a certain complexity") are out, while you concentrate. Including casting any other spells, so that automatically rules out the whole "multiple buffs"-scenatrio. The caster basically gives up their ability to cast any other spells AND half their action for the whole time.
And no, you can not resume concentration, as with the normal concentration rules. Once the timer runs, it runs.
Yeah, IMO, this pretty much makes this a useless ability. I'd never bother to use it in my games. Except maybe for long distance travel Haste of fly being able to last all day long would greatly impact travel times, etc) I think thats kinda the OPs point in this houserule… they want players to be more willing to use spell resources to solve problems outside of combat without feeling stifled by short spell durations while simultaneously not adding a lot of extra power in combat. Exactly, thank you. Things like holding a wall of force to stop a river, keeping up summoning spells as in my example to use the summoned creatures out of combat, maybe a heroic cleric keeping the daylight spell through the whole night to give the rest of the party a chance to rest while oursued by vampires... Kind of the pathfinder version of the trope of the caster who holds some kind of barrier or other effect with gritted teeth, just to collapse when the danger is over, that shows up in so many anime and other series.
What I am looking for is any spells on which it would be completely overpowered or where it leads to problems I might not be foreseeing. My players have been delighted with the summoning-rule in the past, so I don't worry about whether they will find this useful.
Infernal and celestial healing become healing only limited by time, invisibility sphere will allow the entire party to travel unseen all day,
KalridianReincarnated wrote: Azothath wrote: personally I don't think it's a good idea.
All non-instantaneous spells can now basically be 'held', like Summon Monster or Positive Pulse and those are just First level spells. Wait until Aqueous Orb, Swarm of Fangs, Heroism, Call the Void show up at Third level... gonna get crazy.
How will this affect the Initiative game of Who Goes First?
Do you really consider this as so much of a problem, seeing as the caster will not be able to use ANY other spells (except quickened, but that has it's own cost) or any attacks while they are concentrating?
So do you think "paying" with the loss of all other combat actions in exchange for the extended spell duration is still gamebreaking? You are offering spellcasters an unending spell effect.
Yes - that is gamebreaking.
It seems benign at CL 1 but consider that a caster's concentration check increases at CL+(Primary spellcasting ability score bonus) versus a static DC. By CL 5 it is becoming practical and at CL 10 it is about +15 before feats or items.
Spellguard Bracers $5000 for +2 cast defensively and reroll twice take best 3/d.
At CL 10 you can ride a horse and maintain concentration without much ado (vigorous motion Conc chk = 10 + SplLvl).
Phantom Steed so after 10 min prep the caster gains the benefit of the spell with a delayed duration activation, or with Communal can carry the whole party. And then he can start the duration (for the next day) AND claim the spell memorization should renew as he didn't "cast" it within 8hrs or so.
Secondly, on a Failed concentration check the spell duration starts rather than the usual spell failure result. This means damage and CM won't prevent the effect, just START the actual duration and free the caster to do other spells.
Finally you can't say with a straight face that you are going to check every concentration check round after round as the game will become a series of dice rolls. You're going to hand waive it. At that point it becomes a free-for-all with a wink and a nod.
While I'm not a fan of undefined "Spellcasting Manifestations" I understand its purpose.
You are allowing spellcasters to run amok as that initial notice is always in the past.
Permanency has a rather limited list and decent cost attached to it. You've offered most of that without limitation and for free.
If you want to run a game that's a free-for-all magic world that's up to you. You will need to announce that your game is "for fun" and high magic game where everyone is encouraged to dip into a spellcasting class. Rule lawyering is forbidden and whimsical GM rulings should be expected. I think non-casters are going to feel slighted (at a minimum).
As a Fun Game it will work with that declaration as if it breaks for everyone as a GM you can still maintain a semblance of balance. You just need to be clear and get agreement from your players. Powergaming WILL be an issue so you'll want to squash that from the start.
I'd suggest you read the rules for TOON! as you'll need that sensibility as Time Outs will become a useful tool.
To assuage issues for non-caster's I'd suggest adding a magical companion like a Faerie Dragon, Impv'd Familiar, or something similar to provide access to magic.
My thought was to make it a feat, free to only full spellcasters. A full caster will get 9th level spells, eventually. I'm thinking increase of spell level(if any) is a GM call. Since instantaneous spells can be till discharged, the healer could put a heal on the fighter just before they face the big bad. Then they release the concentration just after the fighter takes a major hit.
Actually my first thought was to make a feat where X was the spell level. A use for the other feat that does nothing besides raise the spell level.
I will be cross posting on my Smell my feats topic.
Goth Guru wrote: My thought was to make it a feat, free to only full spellcasters. A full caster will get 9th level spells, eventually. I'm thinking increase of spell level(if any) is a GM call. Since instantaneous spells can be till discharged, the healer could put a heal on the fighter just before they face the big bad. Then they release the concentration just after the fighter takes a major hit.
Actually my first thought was to make a feat where X was the spell level. A use for that other feat that does nothing besides raise the spell level.
I will be cross posting on my Smell my feats topic.
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